How much can i push the timing?

Jon3sgte · 07-20-2009, 08:00 PM

I know i can run 15 degrees with 91 but what is possible with 100 octane or an 87-91 & 100 mix? i'm having my timing advanced thursday and want to push it as much as i can. I have an intake and header back exhaust 3". This is not a daily and i dont push it hard often. Just a weekend cruiser and an occasional drive to work (less than .5 mile)

Ben · 07-20-2009, 09:58 PM

The amount you can adjust all depends on you A/F

MR JAS · 07-21-2009, 02:35 AM

yea you should be able to get some good angle on it with a highoctane fuel but two esentials would be a adjustable fuel pressure regulator and tune and also a a/f ratio guage
mine ran at about 16 degrees for a couple months as i didnt set my timing after i rebuilt my engine and it ran on 91 the whole time
that being said i had a slight issue with the fuel pressure regulator (no vac line hooked up) so it was over fueling like a mofo

Jon3sgte · 07-21-2009, 03:14 PM

is it possible to tune a FPR myself? I know most AF guages are just blinking lights and dont really do much but look cool. i'd rather avoid a piggyback or similar tuner as my mods dont really justify having one.

MR JAS · 07-21-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon3sgte

is it possible to tune a FPR myself? I know most AF guages are just blinking lights and dont really do much but look cool. i'd rather avoid a piggyback or similar tuner as my mods dont really justify having one.

you can tune a fpr yourself but you runinto two problems
1. you cant just use you average afr guage as they are only designed to tell you if its leanin right out you need a wide band sensor and measuring equipment
2. it has to be done tested right through the rev range under full load

so at best you have to hire afr equiptment and do some hot runs down the road nstantly stoping and fiddling

i would say you are much better off on a dyno they will give it a base run then fiddle a bit test it again and probably hold it on revs while fine tuning it
much more accurate and no more than an hours dyno time (1hr = about $120)
plus you also get a dyno sheet out of it
and they can adjust the timing at the same time

Redstar · 07-21-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon3sgte

I know i can run 15 degrees with 91 but what is possible with 100 octane or an 87-91 & 100 mix? i'm having my timing advanced thursday and want to push it as much as i can. I have an intake and header back exhaust 3". This is not a daily and i dont push it hard often. Just a weekend cruiser and an occasional drive to work (less than .5 mile)

How is the timing being advanced? Are you just re-clocking the distributor? Are you going to be tuning this on a dyno or doing the” advance it until it pings” route? How much power are you hoping to gain?

For what it’s worth I’ve been running 14 degrees advanced on 87 octane for over 2 years on my 5SFE. I’ve never heard it ping and have seen no signs of detonation on the spark plugs.

Maybe start with 1/3 of a tank of 91 and have some 100 on hand if you run into issues?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon3sgte

is it possible to tune a FPR myself? I know most AF guages are just blinking lights and dont really do much but look cool. i'd rather avoid a piggyback or similar tuner as my mods dont really justify having one.

Are you running out of fuel? What are you trying to accomplish? Yes you can tune a FPR yourself, it’s easy to adjust the pressure, but unless you have some way of monitoring AFR or are really good at reading your plugs (not recommended), I’d think you’d just be mostly guessing.

Unless you have upgraded your cams I doubt you’re going to find the limits of the stock fuel system.

TomsMR2 · 07-21-2009, 07:39 PM

i ran 15 degrees on 87 octane. more timing doesnt mean more power.

Jon3sgte · 07-22-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

How is the timing being advanced? Are you just re-clocking the distributor? Are you going to be tuning this on a dyno or doing the” advance it until it pings” route? How much power are you hoping to gain?

Yes, just turning the distributor. I probably wont go past 16 degrees without the proper tuning.

Quote:

Maybe start with 1/3 of a tank of 91 and have some 100 on hand if you run into issues?

I have always run 91 through it. It is at a little below .25 tank right now. Now that i think about it i should just run 91 until i can get a proper tune. If i go on a trip or cant make it to a station that has 100 i would be stuck.

Quote:

Are you running out of fuel? What are you trying to accomplish?

I dont think i'm running out of fuel. I just want to push it as much as i can.

MR JAS · 07-22-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon3sgte

. If i go on a trip or cant make it to a station that has 100 i would be stuck.
.

just put some nos in it

two bottles should do it

Jon3sgte · 07-23-2009, 01:13 PM

lmao ^^^^ i had it set at 16 and it runs great. I added 100 after the re-time and it seemed to like that and runs really smooth. i'll probably just do a mix when i can but it ran fine on just 91. Not too much of a difference if any. my car was already at 12 degrees.

TomsMR2 · 07-24-2009, 06:30 AM

its not an endless power trick man.. lighting your gas mix earlier causes pressure pushing DOWN on a piston on the UP stroke. this is counter productive to everything, will reduce power and cause damage. its just not necessary to time a car that high, nor is it beneficial.

i think 14 is the magic number. most cars wont knock, any more doesnt give any power, and it runs 87. aim for 14, call it a day. you're wasting money buying 91, and especially 100 octane.

a 5sfe is incapable of using the ecu to really benefit from higher octane fuel. it just doesnt have that programming, or mechanical capability. any perception of a gain from octane is purely in your head.

Jon3sgte · 07-24-2009, 11:35 AM

I didnt feel any gain after moving the timing, but it does run smoother with 100 and also for some reason lowered my idle 100 rpm. I know cam's are the weak point in the motor but are they really worth it? Does anyone make an ECU tune for this motor? Is that even worth it?

Redstar · 07-24-2009, 12:24 PM

It's your car, run whatever fuel you feel comfortable with. In my opinion, a N/A 4 cylinder with 9.5:1 compression, fixed valve timing and a 6300ish redline will never need anything over 91 if it's running correctly. Mine lives happily on 87, the only difference I noticed by running 92 (what we have in Bellingham) is that my wallet gets lighter.

I'm not aware of any ROM tunes for a 5S. You'll have to look into a piggyback or stand alone.

Cam's are worth it. There's a good post on Celica tech with dyno plots (at work don't have the link) of a before and after cam install on a 5S Call around your local area, you might be surprised how inexpensive regrinds can be.

Jon3sgte · 07-24-2009, 12:43 PM

from what i hear, regrinds arent the expensive part. It's the additional head work that is the killer. i will look into the celica forums. thanks for the info. I will eventually do a 3S swap, I just want to mess with this motor while it is running. what does a piggy back usually go for? are they hard to install and tune?

Redstar · 07-24-2009, 03:21 PM

Other than some maintenance parts, I didn’t think there was any real headwork required to fit a set of cams. I haven't done anything with cams on a 5S yet so maybe I'm missing something?

I picked up a used greddy emanage and a wideband for about $400. Mrturrari is running a perfect power SMT-6, and Scooterman is running megasquirt. Someone else ( Karl I think?) adapted an easily tuned Honda ECU to a 3S successfully.

I didn’t find the piggyback hard to install, just had to be a little creative since there wasn’t a 5SFE option in the manual. I’m finding the emange pretty easy to work with, but others hate it. Some people also hate piggyback ECU’s in general. It really depends on what you have and what you’re trying to accomplish.
If you’ve never messed with any type of engine management you’ll probably want to do quite a bit of reading before you start tuning. Once you’re familiar with things, tuning is usually more time consuming than it is difficult.

I’d encourage you to figure out your goals for the project before going much further than basic bolt-on’s. “I want to push things” is really vague. Vague goals tend to lead to expensive, broken things that don’t run well. If you’re going to spend the money on cams and/or a piggyback, maybe look into turboing your 5S?

If you’re looking for free-cheap mods, start with making sure the engine is healthy. At least do a compression test. From there, there’s a lot of little things you can do. No, these will not make a very noticeable increase in performance, but you don’t need a dyno and they won’t hurt anything like advancing the timing too far can.
Some examples: Full tune-up, index your spark plugs, install a catch can, block off your EGR (I have a spare from my project, pm me if interested), bypass the throttle body heater, port match your manifolds, shroud your intake filter, lighten the car, etc.

Jon3sgte · 07-28-2009, 06:17 PM

Index spark plugs? Did you guys run different plugs? Are they pre-gapped? What does blocking the throttle body heater entail?

Redstar · 07-29-2009, 12:58 AM

Stock, pre-gapped plugs. Indexing is just lining them up so they face the intake valves.

FORDMUSCLE.com web-magazine - How To Index Spark Plugs

I haven't needed them but here's something if you run into trouble
ACCEL Spark Plug Indexing Washers - SummitRacing.com

For the throttle body bypass, you loop the coolant lines that go the the TB together. You can either use something to connect them or just replace them with one section of hose. Look under your TB and find the hoses that face toward the ground, trace them back to the coolant neck - these are the hoses you'd connect together. Google can explain how and why better than I can.

07-20-2009, 08:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jon3sgte Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 126 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	How much can i push the timing? I know i can run 15 degrees with 91 but what is possible with 100 octane or an 87-91 & 100 mix? i'm having my timing advanced thursday and want to push it as much as i can. I have an intake and header back exhaust 3". This is not a daily and i dont push it hard often. Just a weekend cruiser and an occasional drive to work (less than .5 mile)

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07-20-2009, 09:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ben Same In The End Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Oceanside, CA / Reno, NV Posts: 3,929 Thanks: 18 Thanked 276 Times in 258 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	The amount you can adjust all depends on you A/F

07-21-2009, 02:35 AM	#3 (permalink)
MR JAS alfa 155 v6 manual>>> mr2 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: hamilton new zealand Posts: 358 Thanks: 7 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	yea you should be able to get some good angle on it with a highoctane fuel but two esentials would be a adjustable fuel pressure regulator and tune and also a a/f ratio guage mine ran at about 16 degrees for a couple months as i didnt set my timing after i rebuilt my engine and it ran on 91 the whole time that being said i had a slight issue with the fuel pressure regulator (no vac line hooked up) so it was over fueling like a mofo

07-21-2009, 03:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
Jon3sgte Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 126 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	is it possible to tune a FPR myself? I know most AF guages are just blinking lights and dont really do much but look cool. i'd rather avoid a piggyback or similar tuner as my mods dont really justify having one.

07-21-2009, 07:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Formerly Tom Brokaw Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bay Area Posts: 2,497 Thanks: 8 Thanked 233 Times in 168 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	i ran 15 degrees on 87 octane. more timing doesnt mean more power.

07-23-2009, 01:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
Jon3sgte Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 126 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	lmao ^^^^ i had it set at 16 and it runs great. I added 100 after the re-time and it seemed to like that and runs really smooth. i'll probably just do a mix when i can but it ran fine on just 91. Not too much of a difference if any. my car was already at 12 degrees.

07-24-2009, 06:30 AM	#11 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Formerly Tom Brokaw Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bay Area Posts: 2,497 Thanks: 8 Thanked 233 Times in 168 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	its not an endless power trick man.. lighting your gas mix earlier causes pressure pushing DOWN on a piston on the UP stroke. this is counter productive to everything, will reduce power and cause damage. its just not necessary to time a car that high, nor is it beneficial. i think 14 is the magic number. most cars wont knock, any more doesnt give any power, and it runs 87. aim for 14, call it a day. you're wasting money buying 91, and especially 100 octane. a 5sfe is incapable of using the ecu to really benefit from higher octane fuel. it just doesnt have that programming, or mechanical capability. any perception of a gain from octane is purely in your head.

07-24-2009, 11:35 AM	#12 (permalink)
Jon3sgte Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 126 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I didnt feel any gain after moving the timing, but it does run smoother with 100 and also for some reason lowered my idle 100 rpm. I know cam's are the weak point in the motor but are they really worth it? Does anyone make an ECU tune for this motor? Is that even worth it?

07-24-2009, 12:24 PM	#13 (permalink)
Redstar My other cars are jealous Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 18 Thanked 38 Times in 27 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	It's your car, run whatever fuel you feel comfortable with. In my opinion, a N/A 4 cylinder with 9.5:1 compression, fixed valve timing and a 6300ish redline will never need anything over 91 if it's running correctly. Mine lives happily on 87, the only difference I noticed by running 92 (what we have in Bellingham) is that my wallet gets lighter. I'm not aware of any ROM tunes for a 5S. You'll have to look into a piggyback or stand alone. Cam's are worth it. There's a good post on Celica tech with dyno plots (at work don't have the link) of a before and after cam install on a 5S Call around your local area, you might be surprised how inexpensive regrinds can be.

07-24-2009, 12:43 PM	#14 (permalink)
Jon3sgte Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 126 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	from what i hear, regrinds arent the expensive part. It's the additional head work that is the killer. i will look into the celica forums. thanks for the info. I will eventually do a 3S swap, I just want to mess with this motor while it is running. what does a piggy back usually go for? are they hard to install and tune?

07-24-2009, 03:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
Redstar My other cars are jealous Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 18 Thanked 38 Times in 27 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	Other than some maintenance parts, I didn’t think there was any real headwork required to fit a set of cams. I haven't done anything with cams on a 5S yet so maybe I'm missing something? I picked up a used greddy emanage and a wideband for about $400. Mrturrari is running a perfect power SMT-6, and Scooterman is running megasquirt. Someone else ( Karl I think?) adapted an easily tuned Honda ECU to a 3S successfully. I didn’t find the piggyback hard to install, just had to be a little creative since there wasn’t a 5SFE option in the manual. I’m finding the emange pretty easy to work with, but others hate it. Some people also hate piggyback ECU’s in general. It really depends on what you have and what you’re trying to accomplish. If you’ve never messed with any type of engine management you’ll probably want to do quite a bit of reading before you start tuning. Once you’re familiar with things, tuning is usually more time consuming than it is difficult. I’d encourage you to figure out your goals for the project before going much further than basic bolt-on’s. “I want to push things” is really vague. Vague goals tend to lead to expensive, broken things that don’t run well. If you’re going to spend the money on cams and/or a piggyback, maybe look into turboing your 5S? If you’re looking for free-cheap mods, start with making sure the engine is healthy. At least do a compression test. From there, there’s a lot of little things you can do. No, these will not make a very noticeable increase in performance, but you don’t need a dyno and they won’t hurt anything like advancing the timing too far can. Some examples: Full tune-up, index your spark plugs, install a catch can, block off your EGR (I have a spare from my project, pm me if interested), bypass the throttle body heater, port match your manifolds, shroud your intake filter, lighten the car, etc.

07-28-2009, 06:17 PM	#16 (permalink)
Jon3sgte Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 126 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Index spark plugs? Did you guys run different plugs? Are they pre-gapped? What does blocking the throttle body heater entail?

07-29-2009, 12:58 AM	#17 (permalink)
Redstar My other cars are jealous Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bellingham, WA Posts: 396 Thanks: 18 Thanked 38 Times in 27 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	Stock, pre-gapped plugs. Indexing is just lining them up so they face the intake valves. FORDMUSCLE.com web-magazine - How To Index Spark Plugs I haven't needed them but here's something if you run into trouble ACCEL Spark Plug Indexing Washers - SummitRacing.com For the throttle body bypass, you loop the coolant lines that go the the TB together. You can either use something to connect them or just replace them with one section of hose. Look under your TB and find the hoses that face toward the ground, trace them back to the coolant neck - these are the hoses you'd connect together. Google can explain how and why better than I can.