Fuel Controllers?

Final13 · 09-25-2007, 02:37 PM

What kind of response does the 5sfe give towards a fuel controller or piggy back, with out engine mods, how safe are those changes as just a way of pulling a little pep out of the motor? New cams are close to 700, while a controler or "chip" might be as little as 100 depending on how detailed it is. If not what other suggestions are there instead of these as far as no engine mods specifically go?

runabout93 · 09-25-2007, 04:40 PM

Good question.... I'm thinking of 5sfte in the spring/summer next year. I was wondering if I could go piggy back now and start getting used to tuning. I'll probably get a GReddy ultimate. Has anyone ever piggy-backed the 5sfe with any results? I hear all the time how crappy the maps are on this engine. Why not piggy back?

And i've never heard of a real chip worth buying for the 5sfe. But, anyone else? I hope i'm not hijacking the thread. I thought it was relevent... and didnt see a reason to start a new topic.

Final13 · 09-25-2007, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Good question.... I'm thinking of 5sfte in the spring/summer next year. I was wondering if I could go piggy back now and start getting used to tuning. I'll probably get a GReddy ultimate. Has anyone ever piggy-backed the 5sfe with any results? I hear all the time how crappy the maps are on this engine. Why not piggy back?

check that link...that should be a start if you havent already read that.

http://www.mr2.com/kb/index.php?article=10

runabout93 · 09-26-2007, 08:01 AM

Yeah.. I've read it.... and lot of other info on the subject.. on this board, the "other board", the celica forums. Plus I have all winter to really start putting it all together. But, i've been wanting to get a piggy back since the beginning. But, thought it would be wasted until I get all of the turbo componenets. I guess It wouldn't hurt if I had the money to do it.... I think i just answered part of my question. LOL

I would still like to know if piggyback can tune a 5sfe to get a little more juice out of it.

Final13 · 09-26-2007, 03:04 PM

I guess Im in the same boat as you, I would like to do an itb set up and of course the piggy back I am talking about as well. Im not that interested in doing a turbo, but I have greatly considered it. have a different air fuel map is certainly going to garner results, whether the gains are worth the money spent? now thats a question too. on that link, using a piggy back is obviously changing things (not to mention turbo) if im not mistaken I have read that the 5sfe is a little lean from the factory, im not sure how lean however and and how much overall play is really there.

mrturrari · 09-26-2007, 04:53 PM

The short answer is yes, you can get a little more power out of it but you are going to want to be careful. I've haven't heard of anyone making a chip or ROM tune on the 5sfe just piggy backs.

I'm am currently playing around with a SMT6 running some larger injectors on my 93 5sfe. The 93+ 5sfes are a different animal then the 91-92s though. I have found the 93 ECU to be very good at tuning itself in closed loop mode for both fuel and timing. The stock WOT maps are also very good for a balance of safety and power even on my modified engine.

So if you are still mostly stock (no turbo or big cams) you could use an SAFC or SMT6 or any number of other fuel controllers just to lean things out at WOT a little. I wouldn't mess with the partial throttle stuff because it's already going to be pretty good for fuel mileage and cruising and it's just going to be corrected by the O2 reading anyway. Just be careful and don't go too lean at WOT and think about those cold days when you forget and decide to punch it. It would be a good idea to do this on a cooler day and use a knock detection device and a wide band O2 sensor. If you don't have those then you should do this on a dyno with a tuner. Since only small changes are being made the fact that the ECU adds timing under less load will probably not be a problem.

Is it worth it? Well you will pay at least $250-400 for a new fuel controller and then another couple of hundred on dyno time and a tuner. The power gains are not huge but can be felt on the butt dyno. I noticed a big difference when I was running in the 14-15:1 AFR range from the stock 13-14:1 however, I wouldn't feel safe running that lean on a zero degree day. Also I have forged pistons and a 9:1 CR so my motor will take a lot more before something breaks so I am making no guaranties of how far you can take this on a stock 5sfe.

Still I noticed no detonation at those AFRs on a 70 degree day so I believe a stock 5sfe will be fine.

What you do to your motor is what YOU do to YOUR motor.

runabout93 · 09-26-2007, 05:04 PM

I was hoping you would chime in. Thanks!

Final13 · 09-28-2007, 03:08 PM

I would like to do a little short black rebuild and beef things up a bit, since my motor is gone as of right now, I have my budget as my only limiting factor...I would love to rebuild and ITB and tune it up and stay NA trying for the most dependable/fast combination...I was looking into an sfac as im not familiar with the smt6 but am open to options...cams are an eventual obvious choice but for the money I need a motor not cams right now, so other upgrades while I replace is where my money is going, I think if I found build options in the no larger than 1000 range I might be happy budget wise. then adding tuning and dyno time, then going back for cams and itb later down the road. (much later)

TomsMR2 · 10-13-2007, 01:03 AM

soangel made a dyno proven 7whp with an safc years ago.. theres probably more to gain by controlling fuel as well.

Gairloch · 10-13-2007, 05:22 AM

Tom, do you recall what year motor that was on?

Weasy2k · 10-13-2007, 01:27 PM

If you want to geta piggyback to control a near stock motor (or any motor really) make sure it has timing...You can easily make at least 10hp by running a higher octane and just bringing the timing up and controlling the fuel as well.

Final13 · 10-13-2007, 02:41 PM

what are the limitations and or problems with overriding the stock computer like that...is it overall going to be reliable or is it pushing the envelope of the stock internals? The motor going in is a rebuilt bored .20 over NA...(well at least that is what I have been told) 9000 miles ago if everyone was telling the truth about how much they drove it.

runabout93 · 10-15-2007, 11:20 AM

Without real world experience, my response is a guess.... But, I think it is as safe and reliable as you make it. For example: you can piggy back an engine without changing anything. So, in that case it's safe and reliable.... however, you can change your base settings and run too lean, advance your timing too much and totally fry your motor.

Anyway, I'm going to spend most of the winter downtime researching and reading up on tuning. I also hope to find someone near me that has some experience to help me out when I'm stuck. But, here in redneck v8 territory, I doubt I'm going to have much luck with that.

09-25-2007, 02:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
Final13 Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 383 Thanks: 6 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Fuel Controllers? What kind of response does the 5sfe give towards a fuel controller or piggy back, with out engine mods, how safe are those changes as just a way of pulling a little pep out of the motor? New cams are close to 700, while a controler or "chip" might be as little as 100 depending on how detailed it is. If not what other suggestions are there instead of these as far as no engine mods specifically go?

10-13-2007, 01:03 AM	#9 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Still not heraldo. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pineapple under the sea Posts: 4,911 Thanks: 18 Thanked 406 Times in 303 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	soangel made a dyno proven 7whp with an safc years ago.. theres probably more to gain by controlling fuel as well. __________________ Science fact: If you took all the veins from your body and laid them end to end, you would die.

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09-25-2007, 04:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
runabout93 Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 359 Thanks: 25 Thanked 42 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Good question.... I'm thinking of 5sfte in the spring/summer next year. I was wondering if I could go piggy back now and start getting used to tuning. I'll probably get a GReddy ultimate. Has anyone ever piggy-backed the 5sfe with any results? I hear all the time how crappy the maps are on this engine. Why not piggy back? And i've never heard of a real chip worth buying for the 5sfe. But, anyone else? I hope i'm not hijacking the thread. I thought it was relevent... and didnt see a reason to start a new topic.

09-26-2007, 08:01 AM	#4 (permalink)
runabout93 Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 359 Thanks: 25 Thanked 42 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Yeah.. I've read it.... and lot of other info on the subject.. on this board, the "other board", the celica forums. Plus I have all winter to really start putting it all together. But, i've been wanting to get a piggy back since the beginning. But, thought it would be wasted until I get all of the turbo componenets. I guess It wouldn't hurt if I had the money to do it.... I think i just answered part of my question. LOL I would still like to know if piggyback can tune a 5sfe to get a little more juice out of it.

09-26-2007, 03:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
Final13 Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 383 Thanks: 6 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I guess Im in the same boat as you, I would like to do an itb set up and of course the piggy back I am talking about as well. Im not that interested in doing a turbo, but I have greatly considered it. have a different air fuel map is certainly going to garner results, whether the gains are worth the money spent? now thats a question too. on that link, using a piggy back is obviously changing things (not to mention turbo) if im not mistaken I have read that the 5sfe is a little lean from the factory, im not sure how lean however and and how much overall play is really there.

09-26-2007, 04:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 655 Thanks: 2 Thanked 170 Times in 113 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The short answer is yes, you can get a little more power out of it but you are going to want to be careful. I've haven't heard of anyone making a chip or ROM tune on the 5sfe just piggy backs. I'm am currently playing around with a SMT6 running some larger injectors on my 93 5sfe. The 93+ 5sfes are a different animal then the 91-92s though. I have found the 93 ECU to be very good at tuning itself in closed loop mode for both fuel and timing. The stock WOT maps are also very good for a balance of safety and power even on my modified engine. So if you are still mostly stock (no turbo or big cams) you could use an SAFC or SMT6 or any number of other fuel controllers just to lean things out at WOT a little. I wouldn't mess with the partial throttle stuff because it's already going to be pretty good for fuel mileage and cruising and it's just going to be corrected by the O2 reading anyway. Just be careful and don't go too lean at WOT and think about those cold days when you forget and decide to punch it. It would be a good idea to do this on a cooler day and use a knock detection device and a wide band O2 sensor. If you don't have those then you should do this on a dyno with a tuner. Since only small changes are being made the fact that the ECU adds timing under less load will probably not be a problem. Is it worth it? Well you will pay at least $250-400 for a new fuel controller and then another couple of hundred on dyno time and a tuner. The power gains are not huge but can be felt on the butt dyno. I noticed a big difference when I was running in the 14-15:1 AFR range from the stock 13-14:1 however, I wouldn't feel safe running that lean on a zero degree day. Also I have forged pistons and a 9:1 CR so my motor will take a lot more before something breaks so I am making no guaranties of how far you can take this on a stock 5sfe. Still I noticed no detonation at those AFRs on a 70 degree day so I believe a stock 5sfe will be fine. What you do to your motor is what YOU do to YOUR motor.

09-26-2007, 05:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
runabout93 Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 359 Thanks: 25 Thanked 42 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	I was hoping you would chime in. Thanks!

09-28-2007, 03:08 PM	#8 (permalink)
Final13 Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 383 Thanks: 6 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I would like to do a little short black rebuild and beef things up a bit, since my motor is gone as of right now, I have my budget as my only limiting factor...I would love to rebuild and ITB and tune it up and stay NA trying for the most dependable/fast combination...I was looking into an sfac as im not familiar with the smt6 but am open to options...cams are an eventual obvious choice but for the money I need a motor not cams right now, so other upgrades while I replace is where my money is going, I think if I found build options in the no larger than 1000 range I might be happy budget wise. then adding tuning and dyno time, then going back for cams and itb later down the road. (much later)

10-13-2007, 05:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
Gairloch Dreaming of apexes Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,313 Thanks: 139 Thanked 296 Times in 264 Posts Blog Entries: 4 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	Tom, do you recall what year motor that was on?

10-13-2007, 01:27 PM	#11 (permalink)
Weasy2k What is an MR2? Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,891 Thanks: 33 Thanked 82 Times in 68 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	If you want to geta piggyback to control a near stock motor (or any motor really) make sure it has timing...You can easily make at least 10hp by running a higher octane and just bringing the timing up and controlling the fuel as well.

10-13-2007, 02:41 PM	#12 (permalink)
Final13 Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 383 Thanks: 6 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	what are the limitations and or problems with overriding the stock computer like that...is it overall going to be reliable or is it pushing the envelope of the stock internals? The motor going in is a rebuilt bored .20 over NA...(well at least that is what I have been told) 9000 miles ago if everyone was telling the truth about how much they drove it.

10-15-2007, 11:20 AM	#13 (permalink)
runabout93 Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 359 Thanks: 25 Thanked 42 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Without real world experience, my response is a guess.... But, I think it is as safe and reliable as you make it. For example: you can piggy back an engine without changing anything. So, in that case it's safe and reliable.... however, you can change your base settings and run too lean, advance your timing too much and totally fry your motor. Anyway, I'm going to spend most of the winter downtime researching and reading up on tuning. I also hope to find someone near me that has some experience to help me out when I'm stuck. But, here in redneck v8 territory, I doubt I'm going to have much luck with that.