The 5SGE, 5S-GE fable

[runabout93]

^ perfectly put mrturarri! But, I'm staying out of the pissing match. It's completely not worth my time and you elegantly put the butter in that nuts face. or something. LOL

I really dont understand why turbo people come over to this obvious section devoted to non-turbo ideas and start throwing turbos in our face. It's like some disease, a bad case of turborrhea. We don't go over there pissing on the dude who puts the biggest damn turbo he can get on a car and dynos it at over 500hp. Because I could easily say that's a damn waste of money and time. Because that's my opinion. I think it's good for one thing... dynos. But, IMO a 200hp NA will zip and be a lot more fun to drive. I want throttle response and you want spooling and boost. good for you, you have a bunch of people in the 3sgte section to talk about that.

If I built a 200-250hp 4cyl NA engine for the MR2, I would be completely happy. And it would be money well spent.... if I had the money of course!

Anyway, I want to hear all options available for this car. I'm not giving up on the turbo idea either. It's definitely a cost effective solution. But, having an NA is my first choice.

[runabout93]

Originally Posted by Mister2.2

I thought the OP was going to turbo the engine anyhow? Do you want to swap on a GE head and stay NA or go with a turbo? I'm sort of lost.

I've been leaning towards the turbo. I haven't done anything eitherway... and won't until next spring. I want to make sure that if I turbo... I am doing the right thing. I'ld spend $3k making this car a 200hp na before turboing it. But, if that's not really possible... then turbo is my only option. I just can't live with the 5sfe stock power.... or lack of it. It's fun... but, I want more.

[Breed-X]

i'm planning "years" now to build a 2.2 high power NA now.

i have the 3s-ge in my car from stock en this is the way i'm going to do it...


- 3S-GTE engine block! because of the oil squirters for piston cooling (needed for high stroke crank putting stress on cilinder walls)
- 5S-FE crank (longer stroke
- custom wossner rods (normally for GTE) with arp studs, 5sfe crank will be machined to accept these
- custom wossner high comp (12.4:1) pistons 86.5mm (don't go 87mm for a 9000rpm stroker engine! walls are getting too thin and crank is putting more stress on them allready)
- metal head gasket 0.8mm
- arp head studs and main studs
- upgraded GTE pump
- modified GTE sump (oil return closed etc)
- acl heavy duty bearings
- GTE head! bigger ports and stuff
- cams 264° 10.4mm lift
- shimless bucket conversion
- adj cam pulleys
- upgraded valvesprings and retainers
- port and polish
- GE intake manifold, port matched, and ACIS modified
- 70mm throttle body
- custom 4-2-1 manifold
- mongoose echaust, no cat
- airbox
- apexi intake
- fcon ecu
- walbro fuel pump
- custom fuel rail and injectors + adj FPR


thats it from the top of my head, i have the full list on paper , but not here.

so basically i'm building a 3S-GTE stroker engine, but run it NA with high comp pistons and stuff.


ITB setup is for later.


without the ITB setup , schould get easy 250 crank hp. and about 260 Nm of torque! and a screaming 9000rpm redline.


if you want more info you can always mail me @ tonni@teamzeroyon.com.

[runabout93]

^ damn... now that that sounds interesting. But, It seems like the 5s block would be easier then the 3sgte block. But, I understand your oil squirters reasoning. That's not an issue I even thought of yet.

mrturrari... is it necessary for the 3sgte block to accomplish this? Anyway, this sounds really good. a 9k rpm redline is enough to bring a tear to my eye... it's beautiful.

I wish the 3sge was easier to find here. I found one awhile back ago... but it was $3k dollars plus shipping. yikes. I even thought about getting a beams (red top)... but, that was over $4k. double yikes!

Anyway, thanks for sharing and bringing the topic back... sorta.

[Breed-X]

it is also possible with a GE block, you can machine (bore) into the oil galleries, to install the oil squirters, all is in the block allready, you just have to open them up.

but i think they are very important in both stroker engine and high rpm engines, so if you get both...

[runabout93]

So wouldn't using the 5sfe be better off... for a larger displacement and thicker walls? It's already stroked... just needs some stronger rods, higher cr pistons, and the oil galleries machined in. Or are you saying it can't be done with the 5sfe block? sorry, if I'm being dumb and not getting this, I'm new to this level of engine building.

[Breed-X]

it is possible to use the 5S block, but you still need to machine the oil squirters, and if you need the 3S-GTE head too, like i do, its far more easy and cheaper to buy a whole 3S-GTE engine, instead of buying it all in little pieces...and then combine things.

[mrturrari]

I have heard it talked about before and I imagine a good machine shop could tell you for sure. They would probably want to have a look at the block and the squirters first. The 5s and 3s blocks are so close in design I would bet it can be done. Has anyone actually done it before? Some of the 5sgte's guys must have thought of it.
FYI, it has been suggested that the oil squirters are only there because of the extra heat produced by a turbo. My thoughts are that as long as you have a good oil pump, as the engine goes faster it pumps more oil, so you should never get into the situation where you don't have enough oil on the cylinder walls unless something it wrong. I'm just speculating though... still it's a cool idea and I wouldn't fault someone for doing it.

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by Breed-X

i'm planning "years" now to build a 2.2 high power NA now.

i have the 3s-ge in my car from stock en this is the way i'm going to do it...


- 3S-GTE engine block! because of the oil squirters for piston cooling (needed for high stroke crank putting stress on cilinder walls)
- 5S-FE crank (longer stroke
- custom wossner rods (normally for GTE) with arp studs, 5sfe crank will be machined to accept these
- custom wossner high comp (12.4:1) pistons 86.5mm (don't go 87mm for a 9000rpm stroker engine! walls are getting too thin and crank is putting more stress on them allready)
- metal head gasket 0.8mm
- arp head studs and main studs
- upgraded GTE pump
- modified GTE sump (oil return closed etc)
- acl heavy duty bearings
- GTE head! bigger ports and stuff
- cams 264° 10.4mm lift
- shimless bucket conversion
- adj cam pulleys
- upgraded valvesprings and retainers
- port and polish
- GE intake manifold, port matched, and ACIS modified
- 70mm throttle body
- custom 4-2-1 manifold
- mongoose echaust, no cat
- airbox
- apexi intake
- fcon ecu
- walbro fuel pump
- custom fuel rail and injectors + adj FPR


thats it from the top of my head, i have the full list on paper , but not here.

so basically i'm building a 3S-GTE stroker engine, but run it NA with high comp pistons and stuff.


ITB setup is for later.


without the ITB setup , schould get easy 250 crank hp. and about 260 Nm of torque! and a screaming 9000rpm redline.


if you want more info you can always mail me @ tonni@teamzeroyon.com.

It reads like a letter to Santa Clause.

[runabout93]

Originally Posted by Breed-X

it is possible to use the 5S block, but you still need to machine the oil squirters, and if you need the 3S-GTE head too, like i do, its far more easy and cheaper to buy a whole 3S-GTE engine, instead of buying it all in little pieces...and then combine things.

I get it... it does make more sense to me now. Thanks for explaining it a little more. So if you have the 3s block and stroke it out, you don't have to worry about the coolant passages lining up, like discussed earlier. However, with the price tags of 3sgte engines around here... I'm not sure it would be a cost benefit though. Although, I haven't found a ge/gte head by itself either. At least one that wasn't blown. But, at least there are some more options to consider.

Originally Posted by mrturrari

I have heard it talked about before and I imagine a good machine shop could tell you for sure. They would probably want to have a look at the block and the squirters first. The 5s and 3s blocks are so close in design I would bet it can be done. Has anyone actually done it before? Some of the 5sgte's guys must have thought of it.
FYI, it has been suggested that the oil squirters are only there because of the extra heat produced by a turbo. My thoughts are that as long as you have a good oil pump, as the engine goes faster it pumps more oil, so you should never get into the situation where you don't have enough oil on the cylinder walls unless something it wrong. I'm just speculating though... still it's a cool idea and I wouldn't fault someone for doing it.

So, I could always put this on my list... and if it doesn't end up being possible, I could write it off and hope for the best. This is more like added insurance.

Originally Posted by mrturrari

It reads like a letter to Santa Clause.

Dido!

[Breed-X]

indeed, a full, working, 3S-GTE is indeed, not cheap...


BUT


since we want to build a stroker engine, the block has to be bored out, a 5S crank needs to be fitted..... so


buy a blown 3S-GTE for cheap ass money !!!

i've seen them for 750€ (about 1000$) for a full engine, gearbox, axles, ecu and wiring loom, including the turbo and manifolds and stuff, so these parts can be sold again, so about 500€ (+-700$) should be doable. = CHEAP

[runabout93]

True... It all has to be rebuilt anyway... finding that deal around here though is a little harder than you're giving credit. But, I guess I have to start seriously hunting around to be sure.

Anyway, slightly off topic again... But, I've been spotting a few Beams red tops on ebay lately for under $3k USD. I'm wondering about that now. You ever think of going that way? Can you even build a stroker out of it? Anyway, with a high 200hp (+/-) in stock form... seems like a better base to start from. I'm new to the VVT and what that would mean for trying to manage it. And I'm not too sure about parts availability. It might become a mess to source parts for it and tune it. ??

And to contribute back to the original topic... I think we're coming to a conclusion that the 5sge is a waste of time unless that is all you had to work with. Meaning a 5s block and a 3s head. Anyone care to dissagree?

[Breed-X]

if you can source a beams engine for cheap money, its a good way to start with, just a few points you need to take into consideration....:

- red top is rated at 197 fwhp on jap pump gas, on us gas, they will only give about 160fwhp
- if you go tune a beams, you need to work the head, wich means agressive cams, wich implies: deletion of the VVTI system
- red top and parts are generally expensive (more than regular 3S-GE and 3S-GTE)
- its allready high compression (11:1 red top and 11.5:1 black top)
- its lightwheight because the block is made of aluminium instead of iron (and this can also be a downside opposed to regular 3S engine when goeing stroker and high rpm
- stroker kit exists, but very expensive (toda...)


if i had the choice between a red top and regular 3S-G(T)E, i'd choose the older one, with iron block, more support, and cheaper parts, and generally: a stronger engine.

be aware though, the beams head flows soooo good, its hard to match that with the older heads, but its doable.

[runabout93]

So, Let me ask you this... what do you think the cheapest, easiest, and most reliable way to reach a modest 200rwhp (+/-) a horse or 2? Anyway I want power without forced induction and nitrous. Ditching the 5sfe seems mandatory. I think I would be happy with that goal being nearly double the power of the 5sfe. Damn... twice the power sounds beautiful to me. What do you think?

[TomsMR2]

200whp na has v6 written all over it. the beams could do it too, but its expensive and would still need to be modified quite a bit over stock

- red top is rated at 197 fwhp on jap pump gas, on us gas, they will only give about 160fwhp

lol you're not going to lose 37hp from not using jdm yo gas. japan uses a different fuel rating than we do. their 100 octane is our 93 octane. their performance motors are generally tuned to 93 octane. you shouldnt have a problem at all with that. even here in california people tend to run 91 octane on the japanese engines without issue.

[Breed-X]

yeah i think you are right here.
what i meant was that all the beams engines that went on the dyno here, most of them only reached 160 fwhp.
thats on 98ron fuel which equals 94octane.

and cheapest NA 200whp is beams, (don't talk V6 here) beacause a normal 3S-GE is very cheap but needs lots of money to reach 200whp. a beams engine is more expensive but needs less investment over a regular 3S-GE because it allready had high compression pistons and a fetter flowing head, so you'll save a set of pistons and head port/polish over a regular 3S-GE.

but no-one ever said that the cheapest way is the best way to reach 200whp.