The 5SGE, 5S-GE fable

[runabout93]

Has anyone ever done a 5sge hybrid? I always thought it would make sense for those who want to stay NA. But, i've never heard of anyone doing it. I've seen proof of a 5sgte. Well, why not 5sge? Doesn't it remove alot of the limitations of the 5sfe, by getting rid of the head? Anyway, sounds wicked hot to me.

Or is it just better to get a 3sge and stroke it to 2.2L?

I did use search... and came up with only a few comments about it (just speculation). Anyway, I hope this hasn't been beat'n to death.

[shimric]

There have been a couple to do a 5sge. I can't name them exactly but it has been done before.

[runabout93]

Was it difficult... what was the outcome?

[shimric]

Originally Posted by runabout93

Was it difficult... what was the outcome?

I beleive the one particular guy did 3 5sge's. two of them were successful. Theres a good bit of work involved getting the coolant passages on the 3s head 5s block to match. Custom cylinder heads, custom pistons. EMS, ect.... I can't remember the outcome as far as hp/tq numbers.

[mrturrari]

That was probably eazy2001x and he was still using stock fuel and had 171rwhp last I heard. He is in the process of rebuilding because he snapped a crankshaft. The basics are you use a full 3sge swap and then adapt the 5s block and crank to fit it with 3sge rods and custom pistons. As Shimric said you need to check the coolant passages, some line up and some don't depending on the year of the engines used, and then also use the 5sfe oil cooler. There's still more but I'll let someone who has done it chime in. The head bolts right on without modification and you can use the 3sge ECU without problems.

[runabout93]

So, it's really not that cost effective and a lot of work. If you have the 3sge couldn't wouldn't it make more sense to just stroke it and be better off? Has anyone taken a beat'n down 3sgte and rebuilt it to be a NA? I know all of this is way above my skill level, budget, and knowledge. But, these are some of the things that keep me up at night. I just love NA power.

[mrturrari]

The main reason a 5s block is used is because the bore is larger so you can get more displacement. A 3sge stroked with a 5s crank is around 2.1 liters but if you also use the 5s block you can get that closer up to 2.2 liters or right at it with a 0.030" overbore.

You could convert a 3sgte to NA but if you are building it for performance then you would want to get some 3sge pistons to raise CR and something better then the 3sgte ECU to run it. I can't imaging the 3sgte ECU has very good timing and fuel maps for an NA application. It might be doable with a 3sgte and a piggy back but with as cheap as 3sge's are compared to 3sgte's I don't think that would be cost effective either.

[runabout93]

^ Thanks again... What kind of numbers should a 3sge head and 5s block hybrid produce? Nevermind... I just saw 171whp a few responses ago. Doesn't that suck? I thought the 3sge by itself produces more than that (maybe that was with some modificatin?).

Anyway, still a lot of work to be done with reworking the coolant passages, getting custom cylinder heads, and custom pistons. I imagine that's just the beginning. But... theoretically, if I could score a good 3sge... could I give this to a general engine rebuilder to build-up... or would they think I was completely crazy? Or if I could get an extra 5sfe too... could I try to do most of it myself. Well, with some help of course and a lot of studying.

I don't know.. I just want to make sure I don't completely rule out the NA possibility before I spend $2k turboing this motor and be completely pissed when it blows up. Eitherway, I'm not going to start anything until spring... so, I have time to think everythig through. Thanks for all the input.

BTW... mrturrari, how's your build coming? Definitely interested in this project too.

[TomsMR2]

171whp is about 215hp.. more than a beams motor makes. ez did a lot more work than just slapping a head on a block though.

for the money and work involved.. id seriously start considering other options, like a 1mz.

[Mister2.2]

From all that I have read on the subject I agree with Tom. You might as well go with a turbo or 1mz. What did you mean about blowing up your motor? If you're going to spend 2k you might as well do a whole 3S swap.

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by runabout93

But... theoretically, if I could score a good 3sge... could I give this to a general engine rebuilder to build-up... or would they think I was completely crazy? Or if I could get an extra 5sfe too... could I try to do most of it myself. Well, with some help of course and a lot of studying.

A good engine builder could do it and would not think it anything too unusual. It wouldn't be cheap though. You could also do it yourself as some others have done but you need to find a good machine shop and do a ton of research on everything from the specifics of the 5sge to general engine rebuilding.

Originally Posted by runabout93

BTW... mrturrari, how's your build coming? Definitely interested in this project too.

Still trying to figure out the fuel issues but once that is done I will be able to put some real cams in this beast.

[runabout93]

Thanks again, as always.

That thing is gonna be a beast... I hope it really pulls out some good numbers. I smell a record coming. I'm sure it's not about that for you, but would be encouraging for the rest of us. Anyway, keep up the good work!

[butter nuts]

Why bother IMO, seems like a complete waste of time. If you want power and are pulling the engine... just go turbo.

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by butter nuts

Why bother IMO, seems like a complete waste of time. If you want power and are pulling the engine... just go turbo.

You need to go back and read the first post again.

Also you do realize that many of the highest powered MR2s have done this mod... right? Was it a waste of time for them? Turbo and NA power have a different feel and some just prefer one over the other and for very good reasons.

[butter nuts]

None of the "highest horsepower MR2s" have ever been a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder.

[mrturrari]

So what you are saying is exactly what? If you don't have a turbo you shouldn't try to get more power out of your car?

You come in here without even having read any of the other posts and tell everyone that what they are doing is a waste of time. This whole thread as posted by the OP is about getting NA power using a 5sge. It was explicitly stated that he wanted to do it NA. If you really want to join the discussion please educate yourself and read what has been posted by others first so you can make informed comments.

[butter nuts]

Originally Posted by mrturrari

So what you are saying is exactly what? If you don't have a turbo you shouldn't try to get more power out of your car?

You come in here without even having read any of the other posts and tell everyone that what they are doing is a waste of time. This whole thread as posted by the OP is about getting NA power using a 5sge. It was explicitly stated that he wanted to do it NA. If you really want to join the discussion please educate yourself and read what has been posted by others first so you can make informed comments.

Actually, what I said was this;

Originally Posted by butter nuts

Why bother IMO, seems like a complete waste of time. If you want power and are pulling the engine... just go turbo.

It seems as though you may have been the one not reading, as you obviously missed the key word (or acronym).

IN MY OPINION If you want POWER out of your car, and want to stay with a 4 cylinder... you are wasting your time and money with anything other than a turbo swap to start.

Go for it, stay NA. You can build the living crap out of a 5s block, put any head on it you want. You could easily spend 10k on "power mods" all you'll be left with is a 200-250 HP car that is barely street-able. Why bother?

[mrturrari]

Yes, and I could also go into the 3sgte section when someone was discussing the best turbo to use for 500rwhp and tell them IMO they need to use a turbo 5vz instead and using a 3sgte was a waste of time. It still has nothing to do with what was being discussed and I would look foolish for having said it. You need to ask yourself, are you trying to answer the poster's question and contribute to the topic at hand or are you just trying to have a pissing contest? You are completely ignoring the questions people are asking and instead answering the ones you want to hear.

Maybe we need another sticky... No 5sge Bashing.

[TomsMR2]

the turbo nutswingers can feel free to leave the na section any time they'd like. preferably the sooner the better.

[Mister2.2]

I thought the OP was going to turbo the engine anyhow? Do you want to swap on a GE head and stay NA or go with a turbo? I'm sort of lost.