300rwhp 5sfte

[TomsMR2]

imo, the 5sfte is good for making 180-220hp on a bone stock engine using the 3bar, btm and supra injector combo. its cheap and easy, has a distinct power difference between a turbo (a 2.2L turbo with 9.5:1 compression sure runs different than a 2.0L turbo with 8:1 compression).. but its not a dyno queen by any means.

[MR2_Josh]

Originally Posted by TomsMR2

mike colon ditched his 500whp 5sfte for a ~550 (? around there)whp gen3 3sgte. when asked what it takes to build a 500whp 5sfe, he said the same thing it takes to build any other 500whp 2L 4cyl. he was also on the stock valves

when you're making power like that you replace everything, including fuel systems and management.

another 5sfte guy, "manny" is making almost 300 ft/lbs on a bone stock engine, with stock cams! its not a question of weather the engine will make that kind of power, because it can, has, and will continue to. all of the fastest mr2's in the united states have used 5s parts, either the block or crank or both.

for 300hp, going 3sgte saves you from having to swap cams.. but even on the 3sgte 300whp means a new fuel system and many opt for new management too, and still many opt for forged rebuilds. the point is making power is expensive regardless of what you start with, some engines are just marginally easier.

I sort of agree. However, forged isn't a necessity for the 3sgte for sub 400whp actually there are a few running with 400+whp on a stock bottom end just fine. Many are in the 300whp (close to 400whp) and are stock bottom end. I for example are one of the one's in the 300whp range on stock bottom end. Another advantage of the 3sgte is the aftermarket support. There are plenty of people with many turbo kits, fuel systems etc etc at varying prices as well.

Hell you can get an ATS Td06 ROM tune package for $3100 and have over 300whp.

It's the 5s head that is the bottle neck. There is just no getting around it.

[TomsMR2]

the stock head flows enough for 500whp.. its not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. the stock cams are absolutely terrible, thats the big problem.

[Final13]

imo, the 5sfte is good for making 180-220hp on a bone stock engine using the 3bar, btm and supra injector combo. its cheap and easy, has a distinct power difference between a turbo (a 2.2L turbo with 9.5:1 compression sure runs different than a 2.0L turbo with 8:1 compression).. but its not a dyno queen by any means.

Thats more or less what I was saying...BTW I wasnt trying to say 500, 5s's dont exist, just that they cost incredible amounts of money. But you are all right, those things no matter what engine you start with is going to be expensive. I know Im new, I wish I could speak to those 5s's with numbers like that. I wish I had the money to chase the NA records...not as popular as the turbo options but fun either way.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by MR2 Josh

Well I'm having trouble finding my old links to his 5sfte days and his drag runs

I have the hyperlinks somewhere, but the site is long gone last time I checked.

I wish Mike's website was still hosted, or if someone happened to have saved it, shoot me an email with the file

Mike C. did some badass things with that 5S. I could've sworn he was putting down low 600's with his gen3 though...or perhaps I remember him saying that he was shooting for 600? I don't know...

His old screen name used to be Tec2rm IIRC...didn't post much though but I do remember him at least posting some of the spec's to his engine.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by MR2_Josh

Another advantage of the 3sgte is the aftermarket support. There are plenty of people with many turbo kits, fuel systems etc etc at varying prices as well.

Aftermarket really isn't all that bad. I would surely hope that anyone seriously looking to make 500+whp on any setup knows at least what they are doing...or if they are the ones that want turn-key setups...then I'd hope the shop they take it to knows what they are doing.

Fuel systems aren't THAT hard to figure out. There are countless universal pumps out there, and even today with Garrett's fuel pickup off his eliminator kits, anyone with some decent knowledges of earls fittings and lines should be able to put something together. Same with turbo kits. There aren't that many bolt on kits out there that'll push 600whp outside the 35R. Anyone even considering a GT40 or something with a T4 footprint will be looking into custom work here or there even with the 3S platform.

As far as the bottom end, a block is a block, there's only so many ways you can build it. And with people doing 5S based strokers, forged parts for the rotating assembly is easier to come by.

The head is where all the power is made though.

[Jason.MZW20]

Originally Posted by Sang

The head is where all the power is made though.

No one can really discount an F head other than using baseless numbers though. In order to not embarrass the Toyota/Yamaha engineering team, Toyota had to detune the 1MZ so it wouldn't put out more power than the performance oriented 2JZGE. But even still, a 5 speed 1MZ Camry runs the same 0-60 and 1/4 mile times as a 5 speed IS300 in the real world even when the on paper performance favored the 2JZ. The truth of the matter is, the 5S didn't receive the same engineering support. If it did, guess what? The 5SFE would be competing with the 3SGE, again causing embarassment at Yamaha.

The gains on N/A 5SFEs are solid and proven. If it were released like that from the factory, Toyota would have no use for the 3SGE until the BEAMS. Even the Japanese 3SFE received more support than the 5S did. It actually received direct injection and VVT-i upgrades in its last iteration (3SFSE). It was Toyota's first lean burn D-4 engine.

The valve angle of the head doesn't matter too much when you're already forcing compressed air through it. If anything, the smaller ports on the 5SFE keep intake velocity up, which is why Mike Colon's 500+rwhp 5SFTE was possible. I mean just imagine the amount of air that has to be pushed through a 500rwhp engine. Any head can become a bottleneck. You could create a massive valve angle and huge ports and it'd be more of a restriction because all of the compressed air would just hit a wall. There's only so much a 2.0-2.2L 4 cylinder can make. I believe he did say it was the ultimate bottleneck in trying to achieve 600rwhp, and if he could do it all over again, he'd use a 3SGTE, but what's done is done.

Unless you're trying to break records, the 5SFTE makes more than enough power. It's just a whole hell of a lot easier to use a 3SGTE, and likely cheaper too. The added torque of the 5SFTE and responsiveness is also an added bonus. The mild 5SFTEs usually produce more torque than horsepower.

[MR2_Josh]

Originally Posted by Sang

I have the hyperlinks somewhere, but the site is long gone last time I checked.

I wish Mike's website was still hosted, or if someone happened to have saved it, shoot me an email with the file

Mike C. did some badass things with that 5S. I could've sworn he was putting down low 600's with his gen3 though...or perhaps I remember him saying that he was shooting for 600? I don't know...

His old screen name used to be Tec2rm IIRC...didn't post much though but I do remember him at least posting some of the spec's to his engine.

For some reason I want to say he laid down 750whp. Actually 756 to be exact with his gen 3. I'll have to double check though.

[Final13]

Mike's car scares me, but in a good "I want that" kinda way

[Final13]

The added torque of the 5SFTE and responsiveness is also an added bonus. The mild 5SFTEs usually produce more torque than horsepower.

Isnt this kinda thing really more "usefull" driving around town or even the interstate really as far as a daily driver is concerned (obviously not for a race setup)...responsiveness at short duration...but maybe the torque numbers dont matter much when cmopared to a 3sgte but seems like a mild setup on a 5s might be better

[Sang]

Originally Posted by MR2_Josh

For some reason I want to say he laid down 750whp. Actually 756 to be exact with his gen 3. I'll have to double check though.

I stand corrected. His gen3 dyno is up on the registry. Unfortunately, it looks like his 5S dyno was replaced when he updated it with the new setup.

782.9whp / 528 ft-lbs

I found his old 10.9 run when he was 5S on my comp. I'll upload it when I get more time.

[nutty1]

i'm gonna try to turbo my 5sfe... i have most of the turbo from the 3sgte...i'm gonna put it all together. Just bolt on everything and go from there. I'll see what i can get before it blows, then i will probly just get a 3sgte clip and swap.

It would be cool if can beat the stock 3sgte :-) maybe i can hide the turbo somewhere ...sleeper ..hehe

[Jason.MZW20]

Originally Posted by Final13

Isnt this kinda thing really more "usefull" driving around town or even the interstate really as far as a daily driver is concerned (obviously not for a race setup)...responsiveness at short duration...but maybe the torque numbers dont matter much when cmopared to a 3sgte but seems like a mild setup on a 5s might be better

Torque wins races when horsepower is equal. The area under the curve really does matter, especially pulling from tight corners.

[Final13]

Hence why I think a 5sfte might be a "better" daily driver than the 3sgte. Assuming you boost enough to keep HP numbers within reach of one another...

[Jason.MZW20]

Originally Posted by Final13

Hence why I think a 5sfte might be a "better" daily driver than the 3sgte. Assuming you boost enough to keep HP numbers within reach of one another...

It should be. The higher compression ratio of the 5S gives it more response off the line, so overall, it's a good performer. The chance of detonation is higher though.

[Final13]

It should be. The higher compression ratio of the 5S gives it more response off the line, so overall, it's a good performer. The chance of detonation is higher though.

Any good way around that detonation? Also curious to know what the boost limits are on stock internals? Mrturrari (SP?) mentions 10 I think as the top but Im sure i read somewhere else that 14 was the highest without having a forged rebuild...

Also is there a specific write up on how to route (correctly) the oil and coolant lines? I assume follow the same basic setup from a 3s...

[Jason.MZW20]

Originally Posted by Final13

Any good way around that detonation? Also curious to know what the boost limits are on stock internals? Mrturrari (SP?) mentions 10 I think as the top but Im sure i read somewhere else that 14 was the highest without having a forged rebuild...

Also is there a specific write up on how to route (correctly) the oil and coolant lines? I assume follow the same basic setup from a 3s...

Some really good tuning will help you avoid detonation. Tuning is a must on a 5SFTE to avoid grenading pistons. Boost limits will vary with production quality. It really depends on the craftsmanship and condition of the parts. As with any manufactured part, some will be better than others, most will be similar in quality, and some will be worse than others. Luck of the draw. 10psi seems reasonable for the majority. You should always start low then move up in 1psi steps. That'll insure the integrity of the engine is not compromised. Once the damage is done, there's no reversing it. Also watch for boost creep. It's an engine killer.

Yeah the 3S is a good place to start on the oil and coolant lines.

[Final13]

keeping the stock cat or muffler or both, is that enough to prevent the creep? or change the wastegate to be able to bypass enough exhaust gas.

[VeilsideMR2]

so exactly what would be the easiest and/or cheapest way to aquire this much power? or let a lone 250 hp.... and where exactly could u buy these parts for this to work... cause i honestly can't find anything for the 5sfe to even increase the hp drastically, so im all stock... and not for anything, but im not that experienced with this engine either so specifics would be much appriecated to all n/a users hoping to get more bang outta the 5sfe.... and sorry if i sound a little annoying or noobish lol... but all different posts and thousands of different sites dont really give specifics on the exact parts or where to find any parts to increase the 5sfe to make it similiar to a 3-sgte or to a 5sfte and gaining a substantial amount of power without the hassels of a swap, especially if the person has never done a swap, nor knows any1 around the area who could possibly do it... so please if some1 could possibly create a list or something of what the exact parts that are needed for this issue, for example, say i have $5,000 to blow on the engine(just an example) wut would my best bet be to gain more power (not looking to hit 500, i was thinking maybe 350 though...)??? ....but yea thanks and again, sorry if i seem a lil pickey or like stupid lol...

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by Final13

Any good way around that detonation? Also curious to know what the boost limits are on stock internals? Mrturrari (SP?) mentions 10 I think as the top but Im sure i read somewhere else that 14 was the highest without having a forged rebuild...

Engines don't really have boost limits so to speak. People just like to try to make things simpler then they really are. It all about the tune and using the right parts to get it there. With a well tuned EMS and higher capacity fuel system I wouldn't be surprised to see 18psi on a completely stock 5sfe. The 9-10psi limit in my write-up is for the ct-26, 5s ECU, 315cc injector, 3sgte map sensor combo. The 315cc injectors just run out on that setup at 9-10psi or ~180rwhp. If you use larger injectors and/or a bigger turbo, then the 5s ECU needs help to get the A/F ratios back into a safe range.

Detonation is controlled mostly by tuning although other things can help. You need to get the correct timing and correct A/F ratio for any given RPM and load level. I say load instead of boost because they are not the same. As an example, 8psi on a ct-26 is not the same as 8psi on a 50trim t3/t04. 8psi on a ct-26 with the standard 5sfte setup is fun and pretty safe. 8psi on a 50 trim with the standard 5sfte setup will blow you motor because the turbine is less restrictive and it flows more air at the same boost level.

So there are basically three types of 5sfte...

The basic setup is the one on my website and posted in the FAQ that was originally pioneered by Aaron Fowler and others. It consists of a ct-26, 315cc injectors, 3sgte MAP and something to retard timing at boost. You get 7-10psi on this and about 160-180rwhp.

The next level up you have the piggy back 5sfte's which usually have a larger turbo like a ct-27 or t3/t04 although a ct-26 could still be used. These require larger injectors in the 360-460cc range and need tuning to get the A/F ratios back in the safe range. You also still should use the 3sgte MAP and something to retard timing to be safe. These are capable of more boost but remember you are still using the 5s ECU and it was made for a NA application. We have seen people reach 220-240rwhp with these setup still using the stock cams. Boost has been as high as 12-14psi.

Lastly you have the EMS crowd. Not very many of them out there but they have been known to hit 300-515rwhp. Usually once someone gets to this level they are running much longer duration cams, forged pistons and rods, and the motor is fully built to handle high revs. You need to rev a motor to get this kind of horsepower out of a 2.2l I4 plain and simple.