So 5sfe guys, tell me why this wouldn't work?

mr220v · 07-25-2008, 10:49 AM

It seems that one of the biggest obstacles to making a 5sfe that will rev and actually make power consistent with it's displacement is the ecu. Aftermarket seems to be the way people go normally, but why not use another stock toyota ecu, namely the 2nd gen 3sge ecu?

Taking a look at the sensors, it seems like the sensor sets that the 5s and 3s ecu's use are very similar. The main electrical differences are:

-3s has a 4wire o2
-5s has a tps switch as opposed to an actual sensor (though 93+ has a sensor)
-3s has sequential injection vs batch
-3s has a knock sensor
-3s has acis

It appears that the 5s cam position sensor is the same as the 3s, though the 5s ecu only uses one of the G signals. The key differences could be surrmounted with wiring.

Seems like a 5s could be run on 3s electronics for about $150 worth of parts and some creative internal harness modification.

So let me get some opinions as to why you couldn't use a set of aftermarket cams that made peak hp at about the same point as the gen2 3sge, and run with gen2 3sge electronics?

DenverMR2 · 07-25-2008, 11:42 AM

This should really be sent to mrturrari but I don't see a problem with running it like that if won't be throwing codes from not running the right engine and engines putting out different signal voltages.

mr220v · 07-25-2008, 11:50 AM

To do this, I think you'd need the following:

-3sge ecu
-knock sensor
-3sge, or same sized injectors
-tps sensor
-4wire o2
-5s engine harness rewired

Like I say, don't see why this wouldn't work. A similar approach could be taken to turbocharging a 5sfe.

TomsMR2 · 07-25-2008, 02:50 PM

well, it would work.. but pretty much all toyota ecus have no support. imo, it wouldnt make a ton of sense.

id think more like a chipped b20 or h22 ecu.. actually any honda ecu would work if you chipped and tuned it. i think staying closer to the 2.0ish litre engines would give a better base tune.

the downside is you'd have to have some sort of distributer adapter fabbed up, but tuning would be a huge benefit. it would rev to whatever you want and make as much power as you can afford.

but really, theres not much stopping you from really using any 4cyl ecu and harness. the big obstacle for all of them is the distributer, everything else could very easily be replaced and made to work. if you're gonna do it, might as well go all the way and put a little more effort in for a way better end result.. you could totally junkyard-part it for cheap too.

mr220v · 07-25-2008, 03:08 PM

I think the 5s dizzy will work with the 3sge ecu. Internally, all the pickups seem to be the same. After that, use a set of cams that mimick the 3sge powerband.

The idea is to use the 3s ecu without any retune at all. You would pick your mods to fit the ecu. 165hp is what the 3sge normally gets plus up to 8% for the extra displacement.

I do something similar with 20v's. I use a silvertop on a blacktop ecu. The combustion chambers are different, and the BT intake cam is more aggressive. Works great, so there is some flexibility there. I've also heard of it being done with gen2 3sge's using gen3 3sge ecu's. This would be more radical, and you'd still have that economy combustion chamber, but I think it could work and take the need for aftermarket tuning out of mods done to the 5sfe.

TomsMR2 · 07-25-2008, 05:22 PM

they all monitor air intake and will compensate.. you really just need an ecu that compensates well. if the displacement is similar, it'll pretty much work. if you used a hotwire maf ecu, it would probably work no matter what. the 3sge ecu would work once you figured out ignition, im just saying if you're gonna do it, you might as well use an ecu that you can GREATLY expand on

gotta rewire it up anyway!

overall, i think its a great idea. the 5sfe ecu sucks pretty bad.. snodgrass proved years ago that theres a lot of power capped off with the stock ecu.

id be extremely surprised if the 5s dist worked. the 3sge dist should be similar to the 3sgte dist, which is 100% incompatible with the 5sfe dist.

TomsMR2 · 07-25-2008, 06:10 PM

.. or you could grab the head and complete harness and toss it on.. stroker 3sge

that might be cheaper than finding 5sfe cams to compliment the 3sge ecu.

mr220v · 07-25-2008, 06:25 PM

Yeah, I did this with my beams. Ran a 1zz ecu. It ran, but not to full potential. Might do better with the correct coils.

This wouldn't be for me. I have a beams 3s and live in a state where you can have one. This is just me throwing out some ideas to cheaply get the 5s's power up to a reasonable level. Something like a gen2 3sge without actually having to do a swap.

Luni · 07-25-2008, 08:40 PM

I cant see it running right strictly because of the differences in the head and cams. Even if you got more aggressive cams, the VE of the 2 engines are so different youre GONNA need a wideband, and some sort of tuning device to tweak stuff.

mrturrari · 07-26-2008, 02:41 PM

It is an interesting idea and although I think it might be possible to get it running, what does it really buy you? If you get 3sge equivalent cams then you are at about the same place you would have been with a drop in mild cam upgrade on the 5sfe ECU. If you go more aggressive then you will have to tune it and you might as well just piggyback the 5sfe ECU, add the larger injectors and tuned it. You can actually gain many of the same features by upgrading to the 93 5sfe electronics but most would agree it is not worth the amount of work it takes to do it.

mr220v · 07-27-2008, 02:04 PM

What this lets you do (maybe) is use a $75 ecu in place of a standalone. It gives you the higher revlimiter, and more fuel at higher rpms right off the bat.

I've found with various ecu substitutions that there is more flexibility there than you might think.

mrturrari · 07-27-2008, 04:30 PM

I'm not trying to knock the idea. It could be another option for those who don't want to go stand alone or overclock a 5sfe ECU. I just wouldn't trust it without monitoring AFRs and having some way to adjust them since there is a 10% difference in displacement and the VE curves of the motors are quite different to begin with. The 3sge ECU gives you no more control over the tune then the 5sfe ECU and you are probably going to need it especially since the whole point is so you can upgrade to some performance cams. You can probably get a running, working car but you will not have a well tuned car without something to adjust the AFRs.

mr220v · 07-27-2008, 05:12 PM

No doubt it would need some research. In the case of my beams on a 1zzfe ecu, it actually ran quite well. I couldn't tell the difference cruising. It was just down on power, but didn't seem like it was running lean at any point.

I think I might grab a 3s ecu, and make up a little test harness to see what happens. Won't be able to mod the car I test it on, but I'll be able to see how well it runs.

Everett · 07-27-2008, 07:05 PM

Sounds interesting. One question. So if I put some type of standalone ecu on my 5sfe, since i read the stock one restricts some power, I could get more power right off the bat without doing some serious tuning at first? Does anyone recommend any aftermarket ecu's i could use for the 5S?

mrturrari · 07-27-2008, 07:25 PM

If your 5sfe is still stock you aren't likely to see much gain from adding a stand alone. You can probably advance the timing and lean it out a little and gain some, maybe 5-10hp if you are lucky. The stock system, especially on the rev2, is pretty advanced and does a great job of running a stock motor. What a stand alone or any programmable fuel injection systems gives you is the ability to tune to mods that take things out of the range the stock ECU was designed for.

Everett · 07-27-2008, 07:31 PM

I have some mods done. i have Hotshot headers, HKS exhaust, Hi-Flow oil pump, unOrthodox pulley, Weapon-r intake(old style), and I also have some Venom Injectors that are still in the box. My near future plans are to get some cams and maybe a 50-shot of nitrous. Would it be worth getting a standalone at that point?

mrturrari · 07-27-2008, 07:45 PM

I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't worth getting a stand alone just know why you are getting it.

The 5sfe ECU does not restrict power, it just has a conservative tune like all OEM ECUs and is made for the engine as it comes from the factory. There are no plug and play EMSs for the 5sfe so anything will be a custom install. It is a good idea to find a tuner and what their preference is then go from there. You can also go with MegaSquirt but it is a steep learning curve.

07-25-2008, 10:49 AM	#1 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	So 5sfe guys, tell me why this wouldn't work? It seems that one of the biggest obstacles to making a 5sfe that will rev and actually make power consistent with it's displacement is the ecu. Aftermarket seems to be the way people go normally, but why not use another stock toyota ecu, namely the 2nd gen 3sge ecu? Taking a look at the sensors, it seems like the sensor sets that the 5s and 3s ecu's use are very similar. The main electrical differences are: -3s has a 4wire o2 -5s has a tps switch as opposed to an actual sensor (though 93+ has a sensor) -3s has sequential injection vs batch -3s has a knock sensor -3s has acis It appears that the 5s cam position sensor is the same as the 3s, though the 5s ecu only uses one of the G signals. The key differences could be surrmounted with wiring. Seems like a 5s could be run on 3s electronics for about $150 worth of parts and some creative internal harness modification. So let me get some opinions as to why you couldn't use a set of aftermarket cams that made peak hp at about the same point as the gen2 3sge, and run with gen2 3sge electronics? Last edited by mr220v; 07-25-2008 at 11:08 AM..

07-25-2008, 11:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
DenverMR2 Mr. Physics Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 332 Thanks: 16 Thanked 22 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	This should really be sent to mrturrari but I don't see a problem with running it like that if won't be throwing codes from not running the right engine and engines putting out different signal voltages. Last edited by DenverMR2; 07-25-2008 at 06:39 PM..

07-25-2008, 02:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Still not heraldo. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pineapple under the sea Posts: 4,912 Thanks: 18 Thanked 406 Times in 303 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	well, it would work.. but pretty much all toyota ecus have no support. imo, it wouldnt make a ton of sense. id think more like a chipped b20 or h22 ecu.. actually any honda ecu would work if you chipped and tuned it. i think staying closer to the 2.0ish litre engines would give a better base tune. the downside is you'd have to have some sort of distributer adapter fabbed up, but tuning would be a huge benefit. it would rev to whatever you want and make as much power as you can afford. but really, theres not much stopping you from really using any 4cyl ecu and harness. the big obstacle for all of them is the distributer, everything else could very easily be replaced and made to work. if you're gonna do it, might as well go all the way and put a little more effort in for a way better end result.. you could totally junkyard-part it for cheap too. __________________ Science fact: If you took all the veins from your body and laid them end to end, you would die.

07-25-2008, 03:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	I think the 5s dizzy will work with the 3sge ecu. Internally, all the pickups seem to be the same. After that, use a set of cams that mimick the 3sge powerband. The idea is to use the 3s ecu without any retune at all. You would pick your mods to fit the ecu. 165hp is what the 3sge normally gets plus up to 8% for the extra displacement. I do something similar with 20v's. I use a silvertop on a blacktop ecu. The combustion chambers are different, and the BT intake cam is more aggressive. Works great, so there is some flexibility there. I've also heard of it being done with gen2 3sge's using gen3 3sge ecu's. This would be more radical, and you'd still have that economy combustion chamber, but I think it could work and take the need for aftermarket tuning out of mods done to the 5sfe. Last edited by mr220v; 07-25-2008 at 03:18 PM..

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

07-25-2008, 11:50 AM	#3 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	To do this, I think you'd need the following: -3sge ecu -knock sensor -3sge, or same sized injectors -tps sensor -4wire o2 -5s engine harness rewired Like I say, don't see why this wouldn't work. A similar approach could be taken to turbocharging a 5sfe.

07-25-2008, 05:22 PM	#6 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Still not heraldo. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pineapple under the sea Posts: 4,912 Thanks: 18 Thanked 406 Times in 303 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	they all monitor air intake and will compensate.. you really just need an ecu that compensates well. if the displacement is similar, it'll pretty much work. if you used a hotwire maf ecu, it would probably work no matter what. the 3sge ecu would work once you figured out ignition, im just saying if you're gonna do it, you might as well use an ecu that you can GREATLY expand on gotta rewire it up anyway! overall, i think its a great idea. the 5sfe ecu sucks pretty bad.. snodgrass proved years ago that theres a lot of power capped off with the stock ecu. id be extremely surprised if the 5s dist worked. the 3sge dist should be similar to the 3sgte dist, which is 100% incompatible with the 5sfe dist.

07-25-2008, 06:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Still not heraldo. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pineapple under the sea Posts: 4,912 Thanks: 18 Thanked 406 Times in 303 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	.. or you could grab the head and complete harness and toss it on.. stroker 3sge that might be cheaper than finding 5sfe cams to compliment the 3sge ecu.

07-25-2008, 06:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	Yeah, I did this with my beams. Ran a 1zz ecu. It ran, but not to full potential. Might do better with the correct coils. This wouldn't be for me. I have a beams 3s and live in a state where you can have one. This is just me throwing out some ideas to cheaply get the 5s's power up to a reasonable level. Something like a gen2 3sge without actually having to do a swap.

07-25-2008, 08:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
Luni Cage Fighter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Salt Lake City Utah Posts: 3,213 Thanks: 10 Thanked 130 Times in 110 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (8/100% )	I cant see it running right strictly because of the differences in the head and cams. Even if you got more aggressive cams, the VE of the 2 engines are so different youre GONNA need a wideband, and some sort of tuning device to tweak stuff.

07-26-2008, 02:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 655 Thanks: 2 Thanked 170 Times in 113 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	It is an interesting idea and although I think it might be possible to get it running, what does it really buy you? If you get 3sge equivalent cams then you are at about the same place you would have been with a drop in mild cam upgrade on the 5sfe ECU. If you go more aggressive then you will have to tune it and you might as well just piggyback the 5sfe ECU, add the larger injectors and tuned it. You can actually gain many of the same features by upgrading to the 93 5sfe electronics but most would agree it is not worth the amount of work it takes to do it.

07-27-2008, 02:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	What this lets you do (maybe) is use a $75 ecu in place of a standalone. It gives you the higher revlimiter, and more fuel at higher rpms right off the bat. I've found with various ecu substitutions that there is more flexibility there than you might think.

07-27-2008, 04:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 655 Thanks: 2 Thanked 170 Times in 113 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I'm not trying to knock the idea. It could be another option for those who don't want to go stand alone or overclock a 5sfe ECU. I just wouldn't trust it without monitoring AFRs and having some way to adjust them since there is a 10% difference in displacement and the VE curves of the motors are quite different to begin with. The 3sge ECU gives you no more control over the tune then the 5sfe ECU and you are probably going to need it especially since the whole point is so you can upgrade to some performance cams. You can probably get a running, working car but you will not have a well tuned car without something to adjust the AFRs.

07-27-2008, 05:12 PM	#13 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	No doubt it would need some research. In the case of my beams on a 1zzfe ecu, it actually ran quite well. I couldn't tell the difference cruising. It was just down on power, but didn't seem like it was running lean at any point. I think I might grab a 3s ecu, and make up a little test harness to see what happens. Won't be able to mod the car I test it on, but I'll be able to see how well it runs.

07-27-2008, 07:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
Everett Lovin' the curves! Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Decatur,IL/Solomons,MD Posts: 1,446 Thanks: 42 Thanked 65 Times in 59 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	Sounds interesting. One question. So if I put some type of standalone ecu on my 5sfe, since i read the stock one restricts some power, I could get more power right off the bat without doing some serious tuning at first? Does anyone recommend any aftermarket ecu's i could use for the 5S?

07-27-2008, 07:25 PM	#15 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 655 Thanks: 2 Thanked 170 Times in 113 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	If your 5sfe is still stock you aren't likely to see much gain from adding a stand alone. You can probably advance the timing and lean it out a little and gain some, maybe 5-10hp if you are lucky. The stock system, especially on the rev2, is pretty advanced and does a great job of running a stock motor. What a stand alone or any programmable fuel injection systems gives you is the ability to tune to mods that take things out of the range the stock ECU was designed for.

07-27-2008, 07:31 PM	#16 (permalink)
Everett Lovin' the curves! Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Decatur,IL/Solomons,MD Posts: 1,446 Thanks: 42 Thanked 65 Times in 59 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	I have some mods done. i have Hotshot headers, HKS exhaust, Hi-Flow oil pump, unOrthodox pulley, Weapon-r intake(old style), and I also have some Venom Injectors that are still in the box. My near future plans are to get some cams and maybe a 50-shot of nitrous. Would it be worth getting a standalone at that point?

07-27-2008, 07:45 PM	#17 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 655 Thanks: 2 Thanked 170 Times in 113 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't worth getting a stand alone just know why you are getting it. The 5sfe ECU does not restrict power, it just has a conservative tune like all OEM ECUs and is made for the engine as it comes from the factory. There are no plug and play EMSs for the 5sfe so anything will be a custom install. It is a good idea to find a tuner and what their preference is then go from there. You can also go with MegaSquirt but it is a steep learning curve.