To all the 5sfte's out there

SW21T · 11-14-2009, 10:57 PM

What did you guys use to tune the 5sfte? What injector sizes and turbo being used? What was used to control timing and fuel?

tstoney82 · 11-14-2009, 11:57 PM

right now im using the lime green supra injectors. i think, and i may be wrong, that they are 330cc injectors. im using the ct26 turbo right now, but im thinking about changing to the ct20 because its a little smaller and spools a little faster. but im not too sure about all of that right now. as far as timing, i am using the msd btm with the tach adaptor and im gonna get an apexi safc soon to help it all out. im sure an adjustable fuel pressure regulator wouldnt hurt the setup either, but im not exactly sure that its necessary. im still working on my 5sfte too so we can figure this all out together. killermiller seems to have his **** together when it comes to the 5sfte so it would be wise to ask him a few questions. also, check his post and my post about the 5sfte projects we have going. there is a good amount of info on those posts that you could find usefull.

good luck bro.

SW21T · 11-15-2009, 01:35 AM

Thanks man, thats what I was looking for, to see what to use as a tuning management. I had the Apexi SAFC but wasn't sure if I can use it. As for the injectors, they are 315cc's because I have the same pair. I'll be getting rid of mine because they are too small for my turbo and want some 440's. Yeah killer knows what he's doing, I'm still new to the turbo world but have learn a lot with this project.

Can you get me a link of the Apexi?

tstoney82 · 11-15-2009, 03:07 AM

do you want a link to buy one or a different kind of link?

SW21T · 11-15-2009, 03:16 AM

To buy one, the one you're looking at to buy.

SVX92 · 11-15-2009, 03:34 AM

good to see that your still moving with yours man. Sometime I really not to take a look at your 2, sounds like it's gonna be an animal!

SW21T · 11-15-2009, 03:53 AM

Thanks man, I got it running and everything and it sounds like a monster. I can hear the thing from inside my house! I just need tuning.

328FTW · 11-15-2009, 06:19 AM

Yellow are you running a rising rate FPR? you will probably want an adjustable rising rate FPR because as the boost comes on the difference between the rail pressure and the intake pressure drops and the injectors effectively get smaller due to reduced pressure difference. Rising rate means that the vacuum line going to the FPR lets it adjust for this to keep the pressure up, I don't know where the stock FPR stops being effective since its only made for vacuum. Plus for tuning an adjustable FPR is good it lets you up/down the fuel pressure easy which has a big impact across the whole rev range.

You have a wideband O2 and an AFR meter by chance? Or a datalogger and a wideband.....unlikely but I'll ask anyway because they will be your new friends for a while if you are tuning lol.

killermillermr2 · 11-15-2009, 12:21 PM

Agree with 328 completely. I just installed a SAFC ll and a wideband about 2 weeks ago. I havent changed much yet because I have a rising rate FPR to install yet. I think the BTM, SAFC, FPR, 315 injectors, and ct26 is going to a fine setup for reliability and power.

SW21T · 11-15-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 328FTW

Yellow are you running a rising rate FPR? you will probably want an adjustable rising rate FPR because as the boost comes on the difference between the rail pressure and the intake pressure drops and the injectors effectively get smaller due to reduced pressure difference. Rising rate means that the vacuum line going to the FPR lets it adjust for this to keep the pressure up, I don't know where the stock FPR stops being effective since its only made for vacuum. Plus for tuning an adjustable FPR is good it lets you up/down the fuel pressure easy which has a big impact across the whole rev range.

You have a wideband O2 and an AFR meter by chance? Or a datalogger and a wideband.....unlikely but I'll ask anyway because they will be your new friends for a while if you are tuning lol.

No I am not yet, I'll have to buy one when I get my car ready for tune. Thanks for that info I learned from it!

No I don't but I a buddy is selling me one pretty cheap so I should be getting it soon.

SW21T · 11-15-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killermillermr2

Agree with 328 completely. I just installed a SAFC ll and a wideband about 2 weeks ago. I havent changed much yet because I have a rising rate FPR to install yet. I think the BTM, SAFC, FPR, 315 injectors, and ct26 is going to a fine setup for reliability and power.

Has it been tuned though? If it has, has the motor stopped shaking?

killermillermr2 · 11-15-2009, 02:37 PM

No corrections an the safc yet. my motor doesnt shake. I had a slight problem with hard shaking right after install, but it went away soon after.

SW21T · 11-15-2009, 02:44 PM

Oh so it just stopped on it's own, Mine still shakes. Sometimes it stops but then it comes back and I haven't turned it on recently.

mrturrari · 11-15-2009, 04:30 PM

My original 5sfte was a ct-26 with the 315cc injectors and a BTM. It was on my 93 and it went for almost 6 months before I spun a bearing from having a leak in my oil pan at that stupid oil level sensor on the 3sgte pan. Took the engine apart and there were no signs of detonation after that 6 months. The turbo though was showing signs of failure by then and I attribute that to the shop that rebuilt it not balancing it correctly. I ran it for another month with another ct-26 but that one turned out to be bad from the get go.

I also ran for 3 weeks with a 50 trim on the same setup. I hadn't learned what I know now and broke the ring lands of cylinders 2 and 3. It was fun while it lasted for those 3 weeks but it brought me to my senses about tuning.

The latest one, same engine but built with forged internals and cams, will be that same 50 trim t3/t04 now with 460cc injectors, AFPR and SMT6 for tuning. I may see if I can find some slightly larger injectors though because I believe the 460s will run out before I hit the potential of this motor on pump gas.

For those of you thinking about using a rising rate regulator understand that the 5sfe ECU, when you trick it as we are doing, leans out the mixture during transitions between vacuum and boost. Those parts of the maps used to be low load so AFR is lean and timing is advanced. A rising rate regulator not only increases pressure at boost, it will also decrease pressure at vacuum. When you have instant boost like with a supercharger or nitrous this is no problem but when there is a lag between them it increases your chances for detonation. If you have enough fuel up top this will probably not blow your engine because it will cool it back down again after you reach boost. At the very least in my opinion though you should use a wideband and a piggyback to add fuel at those parts of the map to be safe. There is one benefit to using an RRFPR that I see above a normal setup and that is you can use smaller injectors which let you tune idle AFRs better while still having plenty of fuel at boost. Just don't count on it to get your AFRs right by itself.

Also the 5sfe stock regulator works the same as a 3sgte one. They are very simple mechanical devices and they both work at boost.

killermillermr2 · 11-15-2009, 07:36 PM

Thank you for that. I noticed that under light to med throttle just getting out of vac and into boost, sometimes my A/F is getting up to 16's even 17's. I have been wondering why. So an adjustable base, 1:1 rising rate FPR will decrease pressure in vac? I was hoping to use the FPR to get optimal WOT A/F ratios. Then richen the mid trottle getting into boost, and lean out idle with the SAFC. Is an adjustable FPR going to mess with preboost tuning?

CJMR2T · 11-15-2009, 11:24 PM

For starters guys, an OEM regulator will rise fuel pressure 1:1 with boost. All units that have a manifold pressure sensing line will rise with boost whether its on a OEM turbo car or not. Raising Rate units like FMU's just rise at a faster rate then those typically from OEM's.. If you dont believe me, hook a pressure gauge up to your rail and watch the pressure rise with boost.. Hell, even ones that you get for carb'ed engine will raise 1:1 with boost if you drill, tap, and install a pressure port above the diaphram. We used to do this for blow-through turbo carb setups.

Killer, to answer your question about an adjustable unit messing with pre boost pressuer, yes it will. When you adjust the pressure at any point, it will alter the pressure at all points... Example, Lets say that you set it to 50psi when the engine is at 10psi of boost and lets say that it shows 32psi while idling. If you were to adjust it to 60psi while at 10psi of boost, you will now show 42psi while idling..... Basically, if you adjust the pressure at any point, its going to change the entire operating range by the same amount of change.... This is the whole reason that they came out with Raising Rate units... They allow you to keep the pressure normal OEM while off boost but significantly increase pressure while on boost.

killermillermr2 · 11-15-2009, 11:30 PM

What I had in mind was setting a base pressure at idle then go for a WOT run and check A/F. adjust as neccisary at idle until WOT is where I want it. Then use the SAFC to tune the rest in. I am not going as extream as a FMU.

I am also putting in water/meth injection, but that will be injected after the lean spots in the stock 5s tuning. (4psi+)

CJMR2T · 11-15-2009, 11:34 PM

Are you trying to use an adjustable standard type (1:1) regulator or a Raising Rate unit?

killermillermr2 · 11-15-2009, 11:51 PM

I have an adjustable base, 1:1 regulator w/gauge. I didnt know that was a standard function with fuel regulators.

learn something new here everyday

CJMR2T · 11-16-2009, 12:18 AM

Yeah, they all pretty much work the same way. Like Mrturrari said, they are a very basic / simple mechanical device.

Basically they are just a cone and seat with a rubber diaphram and a calibrated spring. The spring is calibrated to the base pressure (no vacuum or boost, just atmosperic pressure..... It takes X amount of pressure to force the cone off the seat (based on the spring pressure. If you apply vacuum to the top side of the diaphram, you now have both fuel pressure and vacuum working to over come the spring pressure thus lowering fuel pressure. If you apply boost (air pressure) to the diaphram, then you have the spring pressure and the air pressure working together to try to close force the cone into the seat thus rising fuel pressure.....

If you have an adjustable unit, all the adjuster does is raises or lower the preload on the spring thus raising or lowering the spring pressure and therefor the fuel pressure....

11-14-2009, 10:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
SW21T 400HP 3rd gen?? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Washington St Posts: 1,853 Thanks: 143 Thanked 32 Times in 30 Posts iTrader Rating: (18/100% )	To all the 5sfte's out there What did you guys use to tune the 5sfte? What injector sizes and turbo being used? What was used to control timing and fuel?

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11-14-2009, 11:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
tstoney82 one hitter quiter.... Join Date: May 2009 Location: clayton nc Posts: 638 Thanks: 16 Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	right now im using the lime green supra injectors. i think, and i may be wrong, that they are 330cc injectors. im using the ct26 turbo right now, but im thinking about changing to the ct20 because its a little smaller and spools a little faster. but im not too sure about all of that right now. as far as timing, i am using the msd btm with the tach adaptor and im gonna get an apexi safc soon to help it all out. im sure an adjustable fuel pressure regulator wouldnt hurt the setup either, but im not exactly sure that its necessary. im still working on my 5sfte too so we can figure this all out together. killermiller seems to have his **** together when it comes to the 5sfte so it would be wise to ask him a few questions. also, check his post and my post about the 5sfte projects we have going. there is a good amount of info on those posts that you could find usefull. good luck bro.

11-15-2009, 01:35 AM	#3 (permalink)
SW21T 400HP 3rd gen?? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Washington St Posts: 1,853 Thanks: 143 Thanked 32 Times in 30 Posts iTrader Rating: (18/100% )	Thanks man, thats what I was looking for, to see what to use as a tuning management. I had the Apexi SAFC but wasn't sure if I can use it. As for the injectors, they are 315cc's because I have the same pair. I'll be getting rid of mine because they are too small for my turbo and want some 440's. Yeah killer knows what he's doing, I'm still new to the turbo world but have learn a lot with this project. Can you get me a link of the Apexi?

11-15-2009, 03:07 AM	#4 (permalink)
tstoney82 one hitter quiter.... Join Date: May 2009 Location: clayton nc Posts: 638 Thanks: 16 Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	do you want a link to buy one or a different kind of link?

11-15-2009, 03:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
SW21T 400HP 3rd gen?? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Washington St Posts: 1,853 Thanks: 143 Thanked 32 Times in 30 Posts iTrader Rating: (18/100% )	To buy one, the one you're looking at to buy.

11-15-2009, 03:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
SVX92 Eat, sleep, MR2, repeat Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tri-cities, WA Posts: 427 Thanks: 26 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	good to see that your still moving with yours man. Sometime I really not to take a look at your 2, sounds like it's gonna be an animal!

11-15-2009, 03:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
SW21T 400HP 3rd gen?? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Washington St Posts: 1,853 Thanks: 143 Thanked 32 Times in 30 Posts iTrader Rating: (18/100% )	Thanks man, I got it running and everything and it sounds like a monster. I can hear the thing from inside my house! I just need tuning.

11-15-2009, 06:19 AM	#8 (permalink)
328FTW Crazy Nasty Honey Badger Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,236 Thanks: 24 Thanked 266 Times in 239 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Yellow are you running a rising rate FPR? you will probably want an adjustable rising rate FPR because as the boost comes on the difference between the rail pressure and the intake pressure drops and the injectors effectively get smaller due to reduced pressure difference. Rising rate means that the vacuum line going to the FPR lets it adjust for this to keep the pressure up, I don't know where the stock FPR stops being effective since its only made for vacuum. Plus for tuning an adjustable FPR is good it lets you up/down the fuel pressure easy which has a big impact across the whole rev range. You have a wideband O2 and an AFR meter by chance? Or a datalogger and a wideband.....unlikely but I'll ask anyway because they will be your new friends for a while if you are tuning lol.

11-15-2009, 12:21 PM	#9 (permalink)
killermillermr2 Honda Hunter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 864 Thanks: 25 Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	Agree with 328 completely. I just installed a SAFC ll and a wideband about 2 weeks ago. I havent changed much yet because I have a rising rate FPR to install yet. I think the BTM, SAFC, FPR, 315 injectors, and ct26 is going to a fine setup for reliability and power.

11-15-2009, 02:37 PM	#12 (permalink)
killermillermr2 Honda Hunter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 864 Thanks: 25 Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	No corrections an the safc yet. my motor doesnt shake. I had a slight problem with hard shaking right after install, but it went away soon after.

11-15-2009, 02:44 PM	#13 (permalink)
SW21T 400HP 3rd gen?? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Washington St Posts: 1,853 Thanks: 143 Thanked 32 Times in 30 Posts iTrader Rating: (18/100% )	Oh so it just stopped on it's own, Mine still shakes. Sometimes it stops but then it comes back and I haven't turned it on recently.

11-15-2009, 04:30 PM	#14 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 655 Thanks: 2 Thanked 170 Times in 113 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	My original 5sfte was a ct-26 with the 315cc injectors and a BTM. It was on my 93 and it went for almost 6 months before I spun a bearing from having a leak in my oil pan at that stupid oil level sensor on the 3sgte pan. Took the engine apart and there were no signs of detonation after that 6 months. The turbo though was showing signs of failure by then and I attribute that to the shop that rebuilt it not balancing it correctly. I ran it for another month with another ct-26 but that one turned out to be bad from the get go. I also ran for 3 weeks with a 50 trim on the same setup. I hadn't learned what I know now and broke the ring lands of cylinders 2 and 3. It was fun while it lasted for those 3 weeks but it brought me to my senses about tuning. The latest one, same engine but built with forged internals and cams, will be that same 50 trim t3/t04 now with 460cc injectors, AFPR and SMT6 for tuning. I may see if I can find some slightly larger injectors though because I believe the 460s will run out before I hit the potential of this motor on pump gas. For those of you thinking about using a rising rate regulator understand that the 5sfe ECU, when you trick it as we are doing, leans out the mixture during transitions between vacuum and boost. Those parts of the maps used to be low load so AFR is lean and timing is advanced. A rising rate regulator not only increases pressure at boost, it will also decrease pressure at vacuum. When you have instant boost like with a supercharger or nitrous this is no problem but when there is a lag between them it increases your chances for detonation. If you have enough fuel up top this will probably not blow your engine because it will cool it back down again after you reach boost. At the very least in my opinion though you should use a wideband and a piggyback to add fuel at those parts of the map to be safe. There is one benefit to using an RRFPR that I see above a normal setup and that is you can use smaller injectors which let you tune idle AFRs better while still having plenty of fuel at boost. Just don't count on it to get your AFRs right by itself. Also the 5sfe stock regulator works the same as a 3sgte one. They are very simple mechanical devices and they both work at boost.

11-15-2009, 07:36 PM	#15 (permalink)
killermillermr2 Honda Hunter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 864 Thanks: 25 Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	Thank you for that. I noticed that under light to med throttle just getting out of vac and into boost, sometimes my A/F is getting up to 16's even 17's. I have been wondering why. So an adjustable base, 1:1 rising rate FPR will decrease pressure in vac? I was hoping to use the FPR to get optimal WOT A/F ratios. Then richen the mid trottle getting into boost, and lean out idle with the SAFC. Is an adjustable FPR going to mess with preboost tuning?

11-15-2009, 11:24 PM	#16 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,692 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	For starters guys, an OEM regulator will rise fuel pressure 1:1 with boost. All units that have a manifold pressure sensing line will rise with boost whether its on a OEM turbo car or not. Raising Rate units like FMU's just rise at a faster rate then those typically from OEM's.. If you dont believe me, hook a pressure gauge up to your rail and watch the pressure rise with boost.. Hell, even ones that you get for carb'ed engine will raise 1:1 with boost if you drill, tap, and install a pressure port above the diaphram. We used to do this for blow-through turbo carb setups. Killer, to answer your question about an adjustable unit messing with pre boost pressuer, yes it will. When you adjust the pressure at any point, it will alter the pressure at all points... Example, Lets say that you set it to 50psi when the engine is at 10psi of boost and lets say that it shows 32psi while idling. If you were to adjust it to 60psi while at 10psi of boost, you will now show 42psi while idling..... Basically, if you adjust the pressure at any point, its going to change the entire operating range by the same amount of change.... This is the whole reason that they came out with Raising Rate units... They allow you to keep the pressure normal OEM while off boost but significantly increase pressure while on boost.

11-15-2009, 11:30 PM	#17 (permalink)
killermillermr2 Honda Hunter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 864 Thanks: 25 Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	What I had in mind was setting a base pressure at idle then go for a WOT run and check A/F. adjust as neccisary at idle until WOT is where I want it. Then use the SAFC to tune the rest in. I am not going as extream as a FMU. I am also putting in water/meth injection, but that will be injected after the lean spots in the stock 5s tuning. (4psi+)

11-15-2009, 11:34 PM	#18 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,692 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Are you trying to use an adjustable standard type (1:1) regulator or a Raising Rate unit?

11-15-2009, 11:51 PM	#19 (permalink)
killermillermr2 Honda Hunter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 864 Thanks: 25 Thanked 28 Times in 28 Posts iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	I have an adjustable base, 1:1 regulator w/gauge. I didnt know that was a standard function with fuel regulators. learn something new here everyday

11-16-2009, 12:18 AM	#20 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,692 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Yeah, they all pretty much work the same way. Like Mrturrari said, they are a very basic / simple mechanical device. Basically they are just a cone and seat with a rubber diaphram and a calibrated spring. The spring is calibrated to the base pressure (no vacuum or boost, just atmosperic pressure..... It takes X amount of pressure to force the cone off the seat (based on the spring pressure. If you apply vacuum to the top side of the diaphram, you now have both fuel pressure and vacuum working to over come the spring pressure thus lowering fuel pressure. If you apply boost (air pressure) to the diaphram, then you have the spring pressure and the air pressure working together to try to close force the cone into the seat thus rising fuel pressure..... If you have an adjustable unit, all the adjuster does is raises or lower the preload on the spring thus raising or lowering the spring pressure and therefor the fuel pressure....