5S-FE MK2 Non-Turbo Engine Testing the Igniter???

nseldy · 08-31-2010, 11:00 AM

Hello all, new to this board with my '92 NA MR2!

Just bought the car, the first day i had it...car ran awesome! Go outside to leave the next day... crank crank crank... nothing. Wont Start!

-No Spark from Coil
-checked fuses/relays all good
-12V to Coil
-I found bare wires going to distributor, fixed them, still no spark
-coil was out of spec, so replaced coil, still no spark
-ran diagnostic test, code 24(IAT) I don't think would be related "no spark" but not sure, also mentioned in manual ECU could be culprit

Is there a way to test the Igniter besides replacing it? Its like $285 from Advance Auto! Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks

nseldy · 08-31-2010, 05:15 PM

Hello anybody out there??? yes i did many searches already, nothing helpful yet... I can't believe its anything major because the car was running and driving fine the day before. The Igniter looks original, and probably never replaced...but I'd hate to spend $285 on a non-returnable item and not have it fix the problem. A procedure to test the igniter would be helpful, but doesn't seem to exist... not even in the service manual

CJMR2T · 08-31-2010, 10:18 PM

Yes, it can be tested... You will need 3 AA battery, a continuity meter, and a 12v power supply (car battery will work fine).

The key think first and for most is making sure that you dont short anything out while testing it... Its best to hit up a local U-pull-it salvage yard and cut the ignitor plug off of another car to use as a test harness... (Camry's are usually plentiful in the yards and use the same plug as do most toyotas in the late 80's and through out the 90's)..

For the 12v supply, a couple of aligator clip test leads and the cars battery will work fine. You just need to ground the case of the ignitor (the case is the ground for the ignitor)..

The ignitor has 5 wires (pins) and are labeled as follows

Pin 1 = IGf (white w/ red stripe wire)
Pin 2 = IGt (solid white wire)
Pin 3 = +12v in (Black w/ red stripe wire)
Pin 4 = Tach out (soild black wire)
Pin 5 = IGc (from coil, Black w/ white wire)

You will only be dealing with pins 2 (IGt), 3 (+12v), and 5 (IGc)

Hook battery positive (+12v) to pin 3, Ground the case of the ignitor to Battery negitive.

Next, hook up you meter with it set to check continuity to pin 5 (IGc) and the case of the ignitor. At this point, you should not have continuity.

Next take your your 3 AA batteries and stack them in series (positive to negitive) basically your trying to create a +5v supply to trigger the ignitor as the ECU would. You will hook the negitive of the stack to the case of the ignitor or the negitive of the car battery (if you want...) then you will momentarly connect the positive if the AA stack to Pin 2 (IGt). When power (5v) is flowing through pin 2 (IGt), you should have continuity between Pin 5 (IGc) and ground if the ignitor is good.

If you do not get continuity between Pin 5 (IGc) and Ground when 5v is applied to Pin 2 (IGt), then your Ignitor is bad (unless you've hooked something up wrong)...

Make sure to not short Pins 2 and 3 together while doing the test or you'll likely fry the ignitor. This is why the extra plug / pigtail test harness is handy...

nseldy · 09-02-2010, 08:58 PM

Thanks for the igniter test procedure! We got the car running! The grounds for the coil and igniter seemed rusty, and i saw another post on here mentioning to run a new ground wire directly from the coil bracket to the frame, we did this and the car started imediately! It ran awesome, very smooth! I drove it the rest of that evening and drove it to and from work the next day. Later the same day i went to start the car...nothing just cranked ... cranked. Tested spark from coil, nothing...once again no spark. Any ideas? Do the ignition relays on these cars go bad and work intermitenly? i had that problem with my old honda... any ideas guys? thanks

nseldy · 09-02-2010, 09:33 PM

update: 12V to coil but still no spark.....

CJMR2T · 09-02-2010, 10:18 PM

Relays are can be a problem but not so in your case since your getting +12v to the coil...

The coil being grounded is not important. Its the ignitor being grounded is what critical...

The coil recieves +12v from the ignition relay (as does the ignitor, they are usually the same wire, just split to each item in the harness). The ground is supplied to the coil from the ignitor. This is to turn on the primary side to charge the coil. IGt is what controls this. When the IGt signal goes low (drops to 0v), the ignitor shuts off the primary side by taking the ground away from the coil... The collapsing magnetic field from the primary windings in the coil induces a voltage into the seconday windings can cause of the resistance difference, there is a mangification of the voltage and it tries to find a ground which happens to be the spark plug.. This my friend is the opperation of an inductive ignition system. The coil is basically a tranformer of sort...

Anyways, back to the problem... Have you checked for codes by chance? If so, were there any and what were they? If you haven't checked for any, then do so first and formost and report back...

The codes could be vital into determining a possible issue.

nseldy · 09-03-2010, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJMR2T

Relays are can be a problem but not so in your case since your getting +12v to the coil...

The coil being grounded is not important. Its the ignitor being grounded is what critical...

The coil recieves +12v from the ignition relay (as does the ignitor, they are usually the same wire, just split to each item in the harness). The ground is supplied to the coil from the ignitor. This is to turn on the primary side to charge the coil. IGt is what controls this. When the IGt signal goes low (drops to 0v), the ignitor shuts off the primary side by taking the ground away from the coil... The collapsing magnetic field from the primary windings in the coil induces a voltage into the seconday windings can cause of the resistance difference, there is a mangification of the voltage and it tries to find a ground which happens to be the spark plug.. This my friend is the opperation of an inductive ignition system. The coil is basically a tranformer of sort...

Anyways, back to the problem... Have you checked for codes by chance? If so, were there any and what were they? If you haven't checked for any, then do so first and formost and report back...

The codes could be vital into determining a possible issue.

Yes, code 24. IAT I believe, not sure if its related or not....

CJMR2T · 09-03-2010, 06:56 AM

No, the 24 will not cause a no spark condition. The IAT input is only for fuel and timing corrections.

Have you ran diag again not that its not starting again?

nseldy · 09-07-2010, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJMR2T

No, the 24 will not cause a no spark condition. The IAT input is only for fuel and timing corrections.

Have you ran diag again not that its not starting again?

Yes, not showing any codes. ha not sure where to go from here?

nseldy · 09-08-2010, 11:51 AM

Quick Rundown: no spark from coil

-new coil
-added another ground from igniter to frame
-getting 12V to coil

So where do we go from here? On the 5-pin connector going to the igniter, what pin carries the 12V? wanted to check for voltage there also... any other suggestions would be appreciated, thanks!

CJMR2T · 09-08-2010, 05:34 PM

As stated above, pin 3 (dead center pin) is the 12v supply. If your get 12v to the coil, then 99% chance your getting it to the ignitor since they are the same feed with the exception of about 6 to 8" of wire where it splits.

Did you check the ignitor as I explained above? If so, I'm guessing it tested fine?

nseldy · 09-08-2010, 05:45 PM

Honestly we didn't have any extra plug / pigtail to test the igniter, and i didn't want to risk frying the igniter if it was good. So maybe I'll grab pigtail plug and an extra igniter too while at junkyard if they don't charge too much. Is it possible for an igniter to exibit these symtoms such as running great for an evening and then "no spark" the following day?

CJMR2T · 09-08-2010, 06:35 PM

Yeah it is possible, often that's how they act, work fine, work fine, work fine, DEAD!!!!.

Like I said in the PM, they can be intermittent too.

Not sure by you, but the u-pull-its her in FL don't charge much at all for the ignitors, like $10 or $15.

nseldy · 09-09-2010, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJMR2T

Yeah it is possible, often that's how they act, work fine, work fine, work fine, DEAD!!!!.

Like I said in the PM, they can be intermittent too.

Not sure by you, but the u-pull-its her in FL don't charge much at all for the ignitors, like $10 or $15.

Great thanks! Is there an Igniter interchangeability list around on here? From doing a search is seems there were several others models that have the same igniter, thanks again CJMR2T :cheers:

nseldy · 09-09-2010, 10:47 AM

I'll try to pickup an igniter from a u-pull-it... if we find out its not the igniter, I'm thinking the only other items it could be would be maybe the pick-up coil in the distributor or maybe the ECU....

CJMR2T · 09-09-2010, 02:06 PM

The ignitor is the same on the mid 90's 5S camry's and celica's. It also the same as the pair use on the 92-95 Lexus v8 cars (sc and ls 400's), just the v8 cars have two stacked together.

Its highly doubtful that its a pickup coil in the distributor. It would have to be all 3 or the car would run. Plus you would get a couple codes (12 & 13 if I recall correctly). If not the ignitor or coil, then it most likely either wiring or the ecu.

nseldy · 09-10-2010, 02:43 PM

Well we just ordered at new Igniter from Advance Auto, $280! Hope this is the problem!!

(fingers crossed)

nseldy · 09-13-2010, 01:49 PM

Installing new igniter today, will post results!

littlemisssmilee · 09-17-2010, 08:21 PM

Hey all, i am actually the person who owns the mr2 that is having all the problems on this thread. We have now replaced the ignition module and still do not have any spark. We are running out of ideas and decided to look at the ECU next but were kinda unsure what to exactly look for so i am posting these pictures for anyone out there that could maybe decipher whether or not there are any problem spots on my ECU. Any help would be very much appreciated. Here are the links to the images....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/IMG_0557.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/IMG_0554.jpg

08-31-2010, 11:00 AM	#1 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Testing the Igniter??? Hello all, new to this board with my '92 NA MR2! Just bought the car, the first day i had it...car ran awesome! Go outside to leave the next day... crank crank crank... nothing. Wont Start! -No Spark from Coil -checked fuses/relays all good -12V to Coil -I found bare wires going to distributor, fixed them, still no spark -coil was out of spec, so replaced coil, still no spark -ran diagnostic test, code 24(IAT) I don't think would be related "no spark" but not sure, also mentioned in manual ECU could be culprit Is there a way to test the Igniter besides replacing it? Its like $285 from Advance Auto! Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks

09-17-2010, 08:21 PM	#19 (permalink)
littlemisssmilee No Skills Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Not sure if it is the ECU now or not???? Hey all, i am actually the person who owns the mr2 that is having all the problems on this thread. We have now replaced the ignition module and still do not have any spark. We are running out of ideas and decided to look at the ECU next but were kinda unsure what to exactly look for so i am posting these pictures for anyone out there that could maybe decipher whether or not there are any problem spots on my ECU. Any help would be very much appreciated. Here are the links to the images.... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/IMG_0557.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...1/IMG_0554.jpg

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08-31-2010, 05:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Hello anybody out there??? yes i did many searches already, nothing helpful yet... I can't believe its anything major because the car was running and driving fine the day before. The Igniter looks original, and probably never replaced...but I'd hate to spend $285 on a non-returnable item and not have it fix the problem. A procedure to test the igniter would be helpful, but doesn't seem to exist... not even in the service manual

08-31-2010, 10:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,688 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Yes, it can be tested... You will need 3 AA battery, a continuity meter, and a 12v power supply (car battery will work fine). The key think first and for most is making sure that you dont short anything out while testing it... Its best to hit up a local U-pull-it salvage yard and cut the ignitor plug off of another car to use as a test harness... (Camry's are usually plentiful in the yards and use the same plug as do most toyotas in the late 80's and through out the 90's).. For the 12v supply, a couple of aligator clip test leads and the cars battery will work fine. You just need to ground the case of the ignitor (the case is the ground for the ignitor).. The ignitor has 5 wires (pins) and are labeled as follows Pin 1 = IGf (white w/ red stripe wire) Pin 2 = IGt (solid white wire) Pin 3 = +12v in (Black w/ red stripe wire) Pin 4 = Tach out (soild black wire) Pin 5 = IGc (from coil, Black w/ white wire) You will only be dealing with pins 2 (IGt), 3 (+12v), and 5 (IGc) Hook battery positive (+12v) to pin 3, Ground the case of the ignitor to Battery negitive. Next, hook up you meter with it set to check continuity to pin 5 (IGc) and the case of the ignitor. At this point, you should not have continuity. Next take your your 3 AA batteries and stack them in series (positive to negitive) basically your trying to create a +5v supply to trigger the ignitor as the ECU would. You will hook the negitive of the stack to the case of the ignitor or the negitive of the car battery (if you want...) then you will momentarly connect the positive if the AA stack to Pin 2 (IGt). When power (5v) is flowing through pin 2 (IGt), you should have continuity between Pin 5 (IGc) and ground if the ignitor is good. If you do not get continuity between Pin 5 (IGc) and Ground when 5v is applied to Pin 2 (IGt), then your Ignitor is bad (unless you've hooked something up wrong)... Make sure to not short Pins 2 and 3 together while doing the test or you'll likely fry the ignitor. This is why the extra plug / pigtail test harness is handy...

09-02-2010, 08:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Thanks for the igniter test procedure! We got the car running! The grounds for the coil and igniter seemed rusty, and i saw another post on here mentioning to run a new ground wire directly from the coil bracket to the frame, we did this and the car started imediately! It ran awesome, very smooth! I drove it the rest of that evening and drove it to and from work the next day. Later the same day i went to start the car...nothing just cranked ... cranked. Tested spark from coil, nothing...once again no spark. Any ideas? Do the ignition relays on these cars go bad and work intermitenly? i had that problem with my old honda... any ideas guys? thanks

09-02-2010, 09:33 PM	#5 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	update: 12V to coil but still no spark.....

09-02-2010, 10:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,688 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Relays are can be a problem but not so in your case since your getting +12v to the coil... The coil being grounded is not important. Its the ignitor being grounded is what critical... The coil recieves +12v from the ignition relay (as does the ignitor, they are usually the same wire, just split to each item in the harness). The ground is supplied to the coil from the ignitor. This is to turn on the primary side to charge the coil. IGt is what controls this. When the IGt signal goes low (drops to 0v), the ignitor shuts off the primary side by taking the ground away from the coil... The collapsing magnetic field from the primary windings in the coil induces a voltage into the seconday windings can cause of the resistance difference, there is a mangification of the voltage and it tries to find a ground which happens to be the spark plug.. This my friend is the opperation of an inductive ignition system. The coil is basically a tranformer of sort... Anyways, back to the problem... Have you checked for codes by chance? If so, were there any and what were they? If you haven't checked for any, then do so first and formost and report back... The codes could be vital into determining a possible issue.

09-03-2010, 06:56 AM	#8 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,688 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	No, the 24 will not cause a no spark condition. The IAT input is only for fuel and timing corrections. Have you ran diag again not that its not starting again?

09-08-2010, 11:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Quick Rundown: no spark from coil -new coil -added another ground from igniter to frame -getting 12V to coil So where do we go from here? On the 5-pin connector going to the igniter, what pin carries the 12V? wanted to check for voltage there also... any other suggestions would be appreciated, thanks!

09-08-2010, 05:34 PM	#11 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,688 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	As stated above, pin 3 (dead center pin) is the 12v supply. If your get 12v to the coil, then 99% chance your getting it to the ignitor since they are the same feed with the exception of about 6 to 8" of wire where it splits. Did you check the ignitor as I explained above? If so, I'm guessing it tested fine?

09-08-2010, 05:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Honestly we didn't have any extra plug / pigtail to test the igniter, and i didn't want to risk frying the igniter if it was good. So maybe I'll grab pigtail plug and an extra igniter too while at junkyard if they don't charge too much. Is it possible for an igniter to exibit these symtoms such as running great for an evening and then "no spark" the following day?

09-08-2010, 06:35 PM	#13 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,688 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Yeah it is possible, often that's how they act, work fine, work fine, work fine, DEAD!!!!. Like I said in the PM, they can be intermittent too. Not sure by you, but the u-pull-its her in FL don't charge much at all for the ignitors, like $10 or $15.

09-09-2010, 10:47 AM	#15 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I'll try to pickup an igniter from a u-pull-it... if we find out its not the igniter, I'm thinking the only other items it could be would be maybe the pick-up coil in the distributor or maybe the ECU....

09-09-2010, 02:06 PM	#16 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,688 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	The ignitor is the same on the mid 90's 5S camry's and celica's. It also the same as the pair use on the 92-95 Lexus v8 cars (sc and ls 400's), just the v8 cars have two stacked together. Its highly doubtful that its a pickup coil in the distributor. It would have to be all 3 or the car would run. Plus you would get a couple codes (12 & 13 if I recall correctly). If not the ignitor or coil, then it most likely either wiring or the ecu.

09-10-2010, 02:43 PM	#17 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Well we just ordered at new Igniter from Advance Auto, $280! Hope this is the problem!! (fingers crossed)

09-13-2010, 01:49 PM	#18 (permalink)
nseldy No Skills Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Installing new igniter today, will post results!