Why not the 5SFE?

[TomsMR2]

racecar building is COMPLETELY different than making a street car

...

[Weasy2k]

Now for example time, say engine A is makes a peak 400hp @ 6000rpms and engine B is makes a peak 400hp @ 8000rpms. Using the formula above engine (in reverse), we know that engine A makes 350ft.lbs of torque at 6000rpm and that engine B makes 262ft.lbs. of torque at 8000rpm.

Here enters the complicated part called gearing. Since engine B has a higher peak horsepower, it can use a lower gear ratio (higher numerically) to multiply the amount of torque getting from the wheels to the ground. Example, engine A is in a car with a rearend gear ratio of 3.42, engine B is in an identical car except that the rearend gear ratio is 4.56 so they are both at peak hp at the same speed. Now say both cars are traveling at the same speed and are both at their peak horsepower. If all other variables are equal (and for the sake of arguement lets say they are) then while engine A is applying 350ft.lbs of torque to the ground (no drivetrain loss for arguements sake) at that same speed engine B has through gear multiplication 133% more torque (465ft.lbs) to the ground at that same speed. (for you math and engineering guru's I know my calculations probably aren't correct but these are just examples to explain the point). To achieve this percentage I just took the reargear ratio of the car for engine B and divided the reargear ratio of engine A into it which equaled 133% increase.

Now lets say both cars have the same gear ratio's throughout. Since engine A has peak power at 6000rpms it will have to shift before engine B which peaks at 8000rpms so engine B can remain in a given gear longer giving it that torque multiplication from the lower gear ratios. Example, both cars are going 75mph and through gearing both engines are turning 6000rpms. While engine A will have to shift to, lets say third, engine B can continue to 99mph before going to third (again using that 133% difference). Most manufacturers will not do this because they can take advantage of gearing which as previously mentioned increases torque output as horsepower can not be multiplied since it is derived from torque. This increase in torque is what helps accelerate the car quicker, so while having an engine that produces copious amounts of torque is nice an engine that is suited to take advantage of gearing will accelerate better.

One might say well then why don't we all drive cars with formula 1 engines. It may seem great to get all that torque through gearing but reliablity comes into play as well as drivability. Many engines that make high rpm horsepower suffer from low rpm torque, but not all (alla, increased displacement). Weight also plays a roll in that its takes more low end torque to get a heavier vehicle moving. So most manufacturers compromise on this depending on what they want the engine to accomplish.


or to sum it up
torque gets you moving, hp keeps you there.

[SpeedballTrix]

^^^

Honestly I was too tired and lazy to read that whole thing... but what I read I entirely agree with. (Bet you didnt see that coming after all that kindling had been thrown down)

I should probably clarify exactly what I meant with a 17 paragraph post... but Weasy kind of said it (or at least close enough to it) and since Ive got work tomorrow... im out =P

[AndrewMcG]

I see a complete lack of knowledge on this thread other than Johnny(Weasy2k). Saying gobs of torque is better than gobs of horsepower is completely ignorant and shows you don't know how you get horsepower. Making torque low means having crappy gearing. Ever wonder why a B16a civic revving to 8500 with just some bolt ons that makes 130ft.lbs. of torque can whip the **** out of a stock Mustang GT with 300ft.lbs. of peak torque that revs to 5500rpm's? Sure weight is a factor, but gearing would be one of the main reasons.

And Jeff(Mrturrari), Im going to have to respectfully disagree with you about the stock 5sfe being able to hold lots of boost with the correct tune. I hope for your sake and your bank account's sake you prove me wrong.

[TomsMR2]

Saying gobs of torque is better than gobs of horsepower is completely ignorant and shows you don't know how you get horsepower

and then you say..

Making torque low means having crappy gearing.

not very sure footing to be calling people ignorant.

[AndrewMcG]

I don't see where you're going with that Tom. Maybe Im ignorant since I see no value to your post, nor do I see any contradiction in my two quoted posts by you. Maybe I need to expound on what I said.

Usually a motor with gobs of low end torque, cannot keep making gobs of torque at high rpm. Therefore, it does not get a very high HP rating. This does not allow that motor to take advantage of gearing, hence lots of low end torque is usually equalled with crappy gearing.

[TomsMR2]

gearing has absolutely zero to do with how an engine makes torque. and if you're making 300hp at 8K rpm, you're making MORE torque than a car making 300hp at 6K rpm. making torque low means the engine was designed to make torque low, nothing to do with gearing.

transmissions should be geared to take advantage of the motors characteristics. they dont determine the characteristics. if you have a peaky motor, its not going to all of a sudden become a stump puller because you changed the gears out.

This does not allow that motor to take advantage of gearing,

how do you figure that? they obviously must be geared different.

a high strung motor wouldnt be able to take advantage of a high torque motors gearset either. doesnt mean either motor cant "take advantage of gearing"

if you threw a corvette tranny on an mk1 na, it wouldnt go anywhere. if you threw an mk1 na tranny on a corvette, it wouldnt go anywhere.

[AndrewMcG]

Originally Posted by TomsMR2

and if you're making 300hp at 8K rpm, you're making MORE torque than a car making 300hp at 6K rpm.

Just playing dude, not trying to make fun of you. Ok, school time.

Horsepower = RPM x Torque / 5252

So lets use your reference. In order to make 300hp at 8k rpm, you have to be making 197ft.lbs. of torque at that rpm.

In order to make 300hp at 6k rpm, you have to be making 263ft.lbs. of torque at that rpm. Therefore, your comment is backwards. It should read, if you're making 300hp at 8k rpm, you're making LESS torque than a car making 300hp at 6k rpm. The point is that at 8k rpm, the motor that was making 300hp at 6k rpm, will probably be falling off the map and be making 200hp at 8k rpm.

Tom, did you know that another word for transmission is "torque multiplier"? Think about that. And yes, if you threw a mk1 tranny on a Vette it would go places VERY QUICKLY. And it would top out at 120mph and spin through the first 4 gears.

[TomsMR2]

a car that peaks 300hp@6K will make less torque at 8K than the motor making 300hp@8K. if you want an engine that makes 300hp@6K to make 300hp@8K, you'd have to find a way to make more torque.

hp is a function of torque. if the motor PEAKS, it will DECLINE after its peak. since the 8K motor peaks later, its making more torque. in order to peak higher, more torque must be made. do your math and rethink that.

take the gutless wonder S2k motor and a 3sgte motor.. we'll say a gen3 to keep peak horsepower similar. if you dragged the 3sgte out to the s2k's redline, the s2k would be making more torque.

[TomsMR2]

Tom, did you know that another word for transmission is "torque multiplier"? Think about that. And yes, if you threw a mk1 tranny on a Vette it would go places VERY QUICKLY. And it would top out at 120mph and spin through the first 4 gears.

it would be like a lightswitch, you'd have a hard time keeping the wheels from spinning constantly and bouncing off redline. it would just sit there and burn its tires off. the torque curve of the engine wouldnt change, just the applied torque would.

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by 93smgturbo

And Jeff(Mrturrari), Im going to have to respectfully disagree with you about the stock 5sfe being able to hold lots of boost with the correct tune. I hope for your sake and your bank account's sake you prove me wrong.

You're welcome to disagree but tell me why? What about the 5sfe internals are weak? You see the 3sgte and 5sfe are made from the same materials and a very similar design. I have never seen anyone break 5sfe internals when proper fuel management was used because power isn't what breaks things. Any engine will break if you don't tune it right and let's face it most people who have 5sfes don't want to make the investment. What usually happens to badly boosted 5sfes is the same as what happens when people try to push a gen II 3sgte past 300rwhp without an EMS.

[mikeswickednick]

to reply to josh's comment that model is just a bad cgi model...

[Tyler H]

Making torque is the whole point.....but nobody in their rational mind can make an argument for the 5sfe as a sporting engine.

Anybody who says torque is a bad thing is an idiot....as is anyone who thinks an engine that runs out of steam at 4500rpm is suited to a sports car.

[Weasy2k]

Originally Posted by Tyler H

Making torque is the whole point.....but nobody in their rational mind can make an argument for the 5sfe as a sporting engine.

Anybody who says torque is a bad thing is an idiot....as is anyone who thinks an engine that runs out of steam at 4500rpm is suited to a sports car.

I said what I needed to :P

Tyler, Whos says the 5vz isnt good So it has a redline of 5500rpm peak torque at 3000rpm and peak power at 4200rpm :P
J/k
He is right tho, if i were to put a 5vz and keep it in stock form, it would be crappy to drive.
Thats why i like to play around with them first :P


Back on one of the topics....
Dynos read your torque and use math to figure your hp
Torque is the PULL you feel
HP keeps the momentum

WITHOUT both your car wont be as quick, yes the s2k motor is decent but if you put a 3s-gte in that car with its 7-8k redline (6k "breath" line) it will DEFINATLY feel faster.

[Mister2.2]

Originally Posted by Tyler H

Making torque is the whole point.....but nobody in their rational mind can make an argument for the 5sfe as a sporting engine.

Yes, in stock form. But it amazes me how much you guys all bash on this engine as if it has little potential... If you take out the dollar/hp equation the 5SFE could be a great engine capable of putting out some pretty damn good numbers for a 4cyl NA.

[Weasy2k]

the 5s is a good engine no doubt about it...thats why i am working on making some upgrades for it...bolt ons if you will...

[Tyler H]

Originally Posted by Mister2.2

If you take out the dollar/hp equation the 5SFE could be a great engine capable of putting out some pretty damn good numbers for a 4cyl NA.

If you take the dollar/hp equation out of the picture, you could put a Briggs and Stratton pullstart mower engine in there and make a bazillion hp.

You can make a 5sfe make some power with enough money, but what's the point? At best, you have something of morbid curiosity...like barstool racing.

You could take the same money and make more power with a 3sgte or a V6 swap....or another car.

It's been debated a gazillion times, but it always comes down to this: The 5sfe is an economy engine, and it doesn't matter if you put the pig in a nightgown, you can't make it dance. They don't respond well to bolt-ons, and it takes a disproportionate amount of money to boost them versus buying a viable 3s, or even swapping a V6.

It does not...make...sense...

It is good at what it does...make a modicum of torque at low rpms and require very little maintenance.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into tires and suspension instead, and have a higher performance car.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into a 3sgte swap instead, and have a higher performance car.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into a V6 swap instead, and have a higher performance car.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into a trust fund instead, and buy a higher performance car.

It is a good...economy...engine... Don't torture it by trying to make it something it isn't.

[AndrewMcG]

Tyler H. for President!!!!

[hmong337]

the 5sfe was an engine engineered around fuel economy and basic commuting. You can't turn a cat into a lion. Plus, the 5SFE head will never flow as free as the 3SGTE no matter how much porting and polishing you do to it.

It's a losing battle to do anything to the 5sfe. That's why there's a 3sgte!

Nuff said!

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by Tyler H

If you take the dollar/hp equation out of the picture, you could put a Briggs and Stratton pullstart mower engine in there and make a bazillion hp.

You can make a 5sfe make some power with enough money, but what's the point? At best, you have something of morbid curiosity...like barstool racing.

You could take the same money and make more power with a 3sgte or a V6 swap....or another car.

It's been debated a gazillion times, but it always comes down to this: The 5sfe is an economy engine, and it doesn't matter if you put the pig in a nightgown, you can't make it dance. They don't respond well to bolt-ons, and it takes a disproportionate amount of money to boost them versus buying a viable 3s, or even swapping a V6.

It does not...make...sense...

It is good at what it does...make a modicum of torque at low rpms and require very little maintenance.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into tires and suspension instead, and have a higher performance car.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into a 3sgte swap instead, and have a higher performance car.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into a V6 swap instead, and have a higher performance car.

You can take any 5sfe car, take the money it takes to build the motor to make any power....put it into a trust fund instead, and buy a higher performance car.

It is a good...economy...engine... Don't torture it by trying to make it something it isn't.

I looked up after I posted and saw this post and I couldn't have said it better.

5SFE = don't do anything to it just drive it.