Harmonic balancer..

[shimric]

So, my harmonic balancer is ****ed and I need a new one. The problem is, I have a celica engine. So would I get a celica harmonic balancer or a MR2 harmonic balancer?

Thanks.


BTW. If anyone has one for a really cheap price please PLEASE send me an email.

[hfmt93]

Im not positive but i think you need the mr2 one. You also have to make sure its the power steering or non-powersteering depending on your model.

[AndrewMcG]

You need a twunt balancer.

[shimric]

Can we act mature in the actual boards please? Keep that crap in OT.

[shimric]

yea, i figured it out, I have to use a mr2 harmonic balancer. the celica one has 4 groves instead of 3 for the ac and alt belts. That really sucks too because the mr2 one is over 300 bucks compared to 160 for the celica

[hfmt93]

search the for sale sections of this board and the other one and you could buy it for cheap. You could get a whole new engine for less than that.

[shimric]

Thanks but I found a better one. Unorthodox underdrive pulley for 170 bucks. All billet 6061 aluminum. No three piece design like that crap stock one.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

get a stock one... there's no "harmonic's balancing" in the unorthodox pulley....

[Luni]

a 3SGTE pulley is a 3SGTE pulley. A 5SFE pulley is a 5SFE pulley.

I dont think we swapped pulleys when I put a ST185 engine into my MR2.

Also about the UR aftermarket pulley, its odd, their website says at great length they wont make a UD pulley for an application that it would be replacing a stock balancer. The 3SGTE is said to have the harmonic balancer in the crank pulley. According to toyota its a balancer. According to UR because they dont replace balancers with UD pulleys, and the fact they make one for the 3SGTE, says we dont have one.

Im more inclined to believe Toyota too.

Another problem is Ive never read or heard about someone frying an engine cause their UD pulley. Ive seen speculation but never actually seen where its confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that the UD pulley caused it.

I know on DSMs they remove the balance shafts (we dont have balance shafts) and they dont seem to suffer any ill effects besides slightly more vibration at the lower range.

All I know is dont jump on the bandwagon for UD pulleys are horrible and will destroy your engine, because Ive been on these boards for quite some time, and Ive never seen substantial proof that says the UD pulley killed a motor.

Ive seen some people turn up the boost and put a pulley on and say "ahh the pulley must have killed it"

Ive seen people put a pulley on but maybe forget to change their oil, or they were using crappy oil in the first place and they spun a bearing or something, but I dont think the UD pulley could cause you to spin a bearing.

I dunno, do some research on it and see what you come up with. Good luck.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

This topic has been discussed several times. The 3sgte/5sgte DO have a harmonic balancer built into the OEM pulley. DO NOT USE an unorthodox pulley.

[Luni]

Just because its been discussed doesnt mean theres any real world data on it.

Im not saying it ISNT bad, but Im also saying that nobody on this board has actually tested their engine longevity with an UD pulley installed.

Youre more likely to blow your engine up with a turbo kit but I dont see anyone trying to dissuade people from buying those.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

a turbo kit can be safely used with proper supporting modifications. A harmonic balancer is on the crank for a reason, and removing it is asking for trouble. Mainy witht the crank shaft, and rod bearings... I know there's no "real world" tests, but most of the people with high power MR2's are not going to throw an unorthodox pulley on there to see if they can ruin their crank shaft to give the rest of us test data. The fact is that a harmonic balancer is needed on the 3sgte, and removing it is a bad idea, and there are no other supporting modifications that can alleviate the need for it.... it's just silly to compare this to a turbo kit.

[shimric]

Why does it matter? If it ****s up their car it's their choice. AND i'm pretty sure UR isn't just going to maching out something that wouldn't work right, thats just stupid.

[AndrewMcG]

Ok Shimric, then in the name of research please use this pulley. UR makes this pulley for two reasons:

1) Douchebags will buy it

2) It will make power(very minimal) due to less rotational mass

There are harmonics on an engine, and with just an aluminum piece that does nothing for harmonics you may see unnecessary vibrations as well as a popped motor. Good luck.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcG

Ok Shimric, then in the name of research please use this pulley. UR makes this pulley for two reasons:

1) Douchebags will buy it

2) It will make power(very minimal) due to less rotational mass

There are harmonics on an engine, and with just an aluminum piece that does nothing for harmonics you may see unnecessary vibrations as well as a popped motor. Good luck.

ditto.... but nobody seems to listen....

[Luni]

I wasnt saying to get one, I was just saying that people throw crap around they read that isnt real world fact. If some guy came in here and said he made x amounts of power with a turbo kit everyone would want to see dynos, but just because someone said an UR pulley will kill your engine everyone just jumps on the bandwagon to not use one. Fact is theres several people running them with no problems and havent had any. Im sure theres people that have had problems with one, but there just isnt enough data IMO.

Dont take this the wrong way guys, god.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Luni, I don't think you're seeing the point here... I'm sure there might be some people running the UR pulley... but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.... just like there's people running without sway bars, and with bald tires, and exhaust leaks and with worn out bearings, and with bad synchros in their tranny's.... maybe they haven't broken anything YET... but doing these things is asking for trouble....

and so is running a UR pulley on a motor that is designed to have a harmonic balancer. This is plain logic, and physics, it doesn't need to be proven by multiple tests on this board to be known as fact. When a harmonic balancer is removed from a crank shaft and replaced with a chunk of aluminum that has no harmonic balancer built in, the crank shaft see's alot of un necessary vibration and movement that it was not desinged to withstand.... yes, it might run fine for 100 miles, 1000 miles, or 50000 miles... but it is the same as not changing your oil and just runnign yoru car with no maintenance for 50000 miles.... it is asking for trouble, and it is completely idiotic....

but to each their own... go ahead and run the UR pulley... you have been warned, and it's up to you to make your own decision now...

[AndrewMcG]

At least its on a four cylinder engine. A V6/V8 would suffer worse without one, but this engine was designed for one so its best to run a harmonic balancer. I hope your motor is balanced within 2 grams.

[Luni]

Well, there was someone who was saying that the 3SGTE crank is balanced as well inherently, and thats why there are no balance shafts (most other 4 bangers have balance shafts), but the 3SGTE does it with the crank and the crank pulley apparently.

This was in some mailing list of old school but they were discussing it... This is why I Kind of have my doubts about it ultimately failing.

Like I said, DSM guys remove balance shafts with no ill effects, it just makes the engine run rougher. It was my understanding those were put there more for the effect of the masses liking a smooth engine vs trying to keep the thing together.

Again, I more or less chose THIS thread to protray that I dont like how everyone just believes what they read, maybe this wasnt the best thread to do it in, but Im just encouraging the starter to do some independant research about it and come to his own conclusion as I did. My conclusion is I wont run one, the gain isnt worth the work to install the thing IMO, but I dont necessarily think it is going to kill the engine and rattle it apart. Id like to think that UR did SOME research and R&D on the engine before making a product for it.

Heres a quote from URs website.

""Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.

Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better."

So I dunno. Theres a company out there called Dynamic Racing that offers it in its kits on a 3000GT. That engine will spin bearings if you look at it wrong, and there arent reported cases of the UR pulley causing issues on it.

Kleeman racing does stuff for Mercedes Benz uses UR pulleys in their kits and they will honor your warranty even if Benz does not on their products. If Kleeman uses it and will still honor warranty, Id say its relatively safe.

Granted these are other cars and engines than the 3SGTE. Im just saying. Ive done research on this already, and my conclusion is that nobody really knows. I dont think our crank pulley has as much stake in the balancing of the engine as everyone makes it out to. I think its more of a matter of "uncomfortable NVH".

Dunno.

[shimric]

It seems I have sparked a debate that I didn't want sparked!!


There is a guy on the board that has the UR pulley, he hasn't had a problem yet. Explain that.