Thinking about racing...

[Sylvan]

So in the 8 months that I've owned this MR2, I've basically fallen in love with it, despite the fact that it's cost me a lot of money and spent more than half the time in the garage (though not so much its fault). It just gives me such driving pleasure, more than any other car I've driven.

Anyways, after doing a few Auto-x and track days, I feel like I want to try my hand at competition (after I get more experience, obviously). Anyway I've been looking at some of the NASA competition series, and the Super Touring (2) looks like a blast. I don't know how competetive I could be in the '2, but it should would be fun to try. I'm lucky to live within 2 hours of 3 great tracks, Thunderhill, Sears Point, and Laguna Seca. Seems like a waste to not take advantage! I just hope my boss gives me a good raise this year.

Anyway just wanted to throw that idea out there. I feel like if I tell people about it, then I'll be more motivated to actually go through with it. I'll keep you guys updated if I make any progress.

[kbrew8991]

Super Touring is a pretty silly fast division, you'll be spending ALOT of money to try and keep up with the current weapons of choice. I don't know that the MR2 has good enough suspension design to hang with the likes of a Porsche 911 GT3 Cup car, a highly modified Corvette C5 or C6 Z06, etc. And we're talking massive amounts of money, I'd guess easily over $40k-$50k in modifications to maybe have a chance


I'd look more at the Performance Touring series and modify the car as little (but still choose parts well) as possible, try to run in PTE or PTD. Yeah it'll be slower than a ST2 car, but still fun and MUCH MUCH more affordable since you're not buying alot of parts, trying to keep consumables underneath a 500whp car, etc. Once you're competing, as long as you and your car are competitive its really just as fun to run 1:50s at Track X as it is to run 1:30s at Track X (imo/e)


and of course you'll need to work your way up the HPDE ladder, but you're already working on that. Don't forget that Time Trials uses the same classing as PT, and would make a great interim step in your quest to race your 91T wheel to wheel

[kbrew8991]

thought about it more, here is how I'd set up a Mk2 Turbo for Performance Touring

starts at PTE** and 2825lbs

pretty hard to stay in PTE and modify anything, maybe do 225 width decent street tires, coilovers (+5 total, and use ALOT of spring rate to control roll stiffness since it'll be stock swaybars) and spend the last 2 points on power

for PTD the options open up quite a bit, I'd look at doing maybe 245 width RA1s, same suspension stuff (only +5 for coilovers with lots'o'spring), +3 for a nice LSD (Quaife) and the rest of the 11 points on power modifications (maybe intake, full exhaust, and boost controller)

the PTE route doesn't allow for hardly any mods, but PTD should let you be a little "mad scientist" without going into crazy-money-pit-class land, and stay in the realm where the car should do very well IMO/E

[Sylvan]

Thanks for the non-fanboy response. That's kind of what I'm wrestling with, is how much money it would cost to be competitive, and if it can even be done in these cars. The Performance Touring seems more realistic as you say. Maybe that's where I should focus my energy in the beginning, as I test the waters and learn to setup the car. I can always upgrade later, I suppose. PTD sounds like it could still be pretty fast.

Anyway, this probably won't be until next year, depending on how my finances shape up. I'll have to start looking out for some good deals on a potential race car. Do the 91T and 93T start out in the same base class? I wouldn't want to buy a 91 and then be docked points for upgrading to 93 spec brakes, sways, etc.

[kbrew8991]

they start the same base class, and since NASA doesn't use a "VIN Rule" (like SCCA, which may be ditching theirs) you can use all 1993 Turbo stuff, but I mean all. If there is something funky/bad that the 93s have to deal with that the 91s didn't have (I'm no expert) you'll need to swap that over too

I play around with the PT/TT ruleset alot (especially since I help classify alot of cars being a regional series director for both) so feel free to fire away any questions or look for advice. As long as I'm not competing with you I'll maybe even share a secret or two

hmm, was searching for the 2007 NASA Championships results to try and show ya what E and D were capable of but I can't find it. in 2006 TTD went 1:44.8 and TTE went 1:48.1 on Mid-Ohio Club Course (the 2.4mi layout) which is an average of 82.44 and 79.93 respectively. There was no TTU/TTS as they exist today, but the equivalent went 1:34.3 which is an average of 91.62 to give you an idea just HOW much faster TTS/TTU or ST2/ST1 (respectively) is

and you're right if PTD or whatever is too slow you can modify up to C, up to B, up to A, and then you're in ST2 where you were thinking of starting to begin with

[Jaicvc]

Sylvan bro ill go with u on the track my 2 is all stock but i just wanna try a new thing for my 2! halla bck bro!

[Sylvan]

Cool stuff. Glad to know there's another MR2 racer that could offer me some helpful tips, or some friendly competition

Jaicvc, I'm doing an HPDE at Sears Point (Infineon) on Feb 9. $160 if you're a NASA member. You should come on out and help represent, I'm crossing my fingers for no rain that day.

[Jaicvc]

sylvan dang to soon... give me a month ahead so i could plan ahead...

[HarrisRacing]

One of our local tracks runs a "bracket" style class which really ends up being the best bet for any car really. It's got 2 second lap time class intervals and there are 4 different classes. This allows you to mod your car as much as you want and then qualify with a transponder and they put you into the class. When you break out, you are disqualified. Also when you get past the fastest class you move up to what we call the GTO or Super Production class - Which are VERY fast cars and this is where the "money game" really starts if you want to play it. The GT3 Porsche (Crosby) DOMINATED the Super Production class and was less than a second off of the track record (held by another GT3).

This is by far the most fair way to road race. It allows any skill or car prep level to compete without much attention to modifications - so you don't have to prep your car to "the rules" to have fun racing.

I would lobby for this form of racing if possible.

Thanks,
Patrick

[kbrew8991]

you can do pretty much whatever you want in NASA TT/PT/ST; but to be competitive you should probably plan out your modifications to get the best benifits for the points

and I bet that will turn out to be the case with your system as well Patrick..?

at any rate, the NASA system is the most open you could hope for that will still hold National Championships with pretty decent contingency prize money, notoriety, etc

[mopwer]

I personally am very hesitant to put my street car on a track with other cars. I'd be worried about ruining my or someone elses ride if things go wrong. I would definately do it in a track only prepped car and would mix it up with less worries.

My $0.02.

Greg

[HarrisRacing]

Regardless of the club, I will offer this advice - Follow the rules to MAKE THE CAR HANDLE. We are talking road racing here, power doesn't make a huge difference out there - no where near what adding grip and control will. It's also the most reliable route to leave the engine relatively stock and modify the tires, suspension, wheels and then address what weight reduction is possible. Plus I'd say that removing the "twitchyness" from an Mr2 is high on my list. This isn't Time-attack (which is actually harder on the car beacuse you can go full out all day and not get held up in traffic), so the car should actually be more reliable in the long run, but in that sense you want to be able to change your line mid-turn without upsetting the car.

In my car I have a completely stock 60k mile engine with a downpipe, SS autochrome intercooler and a boost controller (13-15 psi). I even spent the money on a Moroso oil pan and new water pump, timing belt, etc...to make sure it would last like that. I could throw $2k into the motor for a new turbo setup, but actually next on the list is a tranny rebuild and good differential. Mine has 233k miles on it and is COVERED with greasy goo. Still shifts good, but that one-wheel-peel has to go. That way I could race even longer and have more fun tweaking the car to match what bracket class I want to run in. In that, you still will need LOTS to time to figure out your setup. You might have to start big (changing springs, tire sizes, etc), but in the end you should be tweaking the car to maximize it's potential as well as yours.

Oh and most importantly, HAVE FUN and BE SAFE!!

Patrick

[kbrew8991]

Originally Posted by mopwer

I personally am very hesitant to put my street car on a track with other cars. I'd be worried about ruining my or someone elses ride if things go wrong. I would definately do it in a track only prepped car and would mix it up with less worries.

My $0.02.

Greg

and thats where something like Time Trials is a good bridge... get some competition but its still more often than not people's street(ish) cars, you're not drivebombing into the braking zone for postition or almost rubbing fenders mid-corner (since its all about laptime) etc

[mopwer]

Originally Posted by kbrew8991

and thats where something like Time Trials is a good bridge... get some competition but its still more often than not people's street(ish) cars, you're not drivebombing into the braking zone for postition or almost rubbing fenders mid-corner (since its all about laptime) etc

I could dig on that. Do they space everyone out or what? How does it work? Thanks.

Greg

[Sylvan]

I have my DD honda for work commuting, and my current MR2 as my fun street car for weekends. If I did get into competitive racing, I wouldn't use this MR2, I'd buy another one most likely. That way I wouldn't be hurting too bad if I wrecked it or whatever, and I'd be able to scavenge parts on short notice if I needed to.

I agree with you Patrick that reliability would be key, and that's something I would focus a lot of my energy on. I do feel however that power is very important on the race track, in addition to handling well. This of course is just my theory and I don't have the experience to back it up. But when you consider that in NASA's ST classes you're limited by wt/HP ratio (someone correct me if I'm wrong), then you need power. You can't just be light weight.

This is probably a whole subject in itself, and I'm not sure I want to bring up a huge discussion about it. But I think that if you have two cars that are the same wt/HP, say car A is 2500lb/250whp (not uncommon for an MR2), car B is 3500lb/350whp (say, a Supra or something), the heavier car with more power has more potential to be faster on the track. He would have a huge advantage in power/drag ratio, and can use gearing to make up for his weight when accelerating out of a corner.

Anyway that's just my theory, but anyways that's getting a bit off on a tangent.

[kbrew8991]

Originally Posted by mopwer

I could dig on that. Do they space everyone out or what? How does it work? Thanks.

Greg

SCCA does it more autocross style with maybe 3-4 cars on track for a few laps. Upside - definatley no other cars around to worry about downsides - same classing as autocross, less track time (maybe a 20 min open practice and then 3-4 laps to get a time)

I greatly perfer the NASA style though where its more like F1 qualifying with 20-40 cars on track (like an HPDE group) gridded by their laptimes so you really end up fanning out, but you end up getting lapped by the faster classed cars at some point. Really requires a much more level head on your shoulders though, good 360* awarness of whats going on around you, etc. Also their classing IMHO while more complex, creates alot better competition since you almost always have someone in your class to compete with
upside - great bridge towards WTW racing since its open passing, lots going on, quality of drivers around you is screened to make sure everyone can handle themselves, same amount of tracktime as HPDE groups (usually 3hrs/weekend), many chances to nail that lap so you can take your time and work up to speed incrementally... downsides - pretty intense (though I've yet to see car-car contact and we all do whatever it takes to minimize the risk of that) because its open passing, car classification ruleset can be a bit confusing sometimes

- Ken, who says you haven't lived until you've had a 911 GT3 Cup car go 6" off your mirror at 190mph (while you're doing 100mph)

[Gairloch]

Originally Posted by mopwer

I could dig on that. Do they space everyone out or what? How does it work? Thanks.

Greg

Cars are gridded up and released by the grid workers once they're given clearance by race control just like an HPDE. Any cars that start late go up to the pit out and are released by either grid or a corner worker there depending on which track it is. There can be a vast difference in power for TT; you have 400+ whp cars on the track same time as NA miatas. Smart people with slower cars usually hang back so they end up towards the end of the grid but there is no particular order they are released in. TT is an open passing class so there is more risk than most of the HPDE classes but not a lot if the class directors have done their jobs well. Basically, if the idea of going through a corner with another car 6 inches, or less, from your door freaks you out stay in HPDE until you have a higher comfort level.

Originally Posted by Sylvan

I have my DD honda for work commuting, and my current MR2 as my fun street car for weekends. If I did get into competitive racing, I wouldn't use this MR2, I'd buy another one most likely. That way I wouldn't be hurting too bad if I wrecked it or whatever, and I'd be able to scavenge parts on short notice if I needed to.

I agree with you Patrick that reliability would be key, and that's something I would focus a lot of my energy on. I do feel however that power is very important on the race track, in addition to handling well. This of course is just my theory and I don't have the experience to back it up. But when you consider that in NASA's ST classes you're limited by wt/HP ratio (someone correct me if I'm wrong), then you need power. You can't just be light weight.

This is probably a whole subject in itself, and I'm not sure I want to bring up a huge discussion about it. But I think that if you have two cars that are the same wt/HP, say car A is 2500lb/250whp (not uncommon for an MR2), car B is 3500lb/350whp (say, a Supra or something), the heavier car with more power has more potential to be faster on the track. He would have a huge advantage in power/drag ratio, and can use gearing to make up for his weight when accelerating out of a corner.

Anyway that's just my theory, but anyways that's getting a bit off on a tangent.

Remember that if you go into competition classes you have to have full race prep. This means race seats, 5+ point harness, cage, engine kill switch, tow points etc etc. Race cars are rarely street legal by the time all the prep is done.

I suggest that for your first race car your A #1 priority be SAFETY. You're not going to be competitive for quite a while unless you're a driving natural and it takes time to get used to dealing with traffic and figuring out race lines, which is very different than figuring out fast lines.

I'm sure Ken could tell you even more about this since he's got more WtW experience than I do.

[Gairloch]

Originally Posted by kbrew8991

- Ken, who says you haven't lived until you've had a 911 GT3 Cup car go 6" off your mirror at 190mph (while you're doing 100mph)

QFT

[kbrew8991]

thats another big plus about the NASA-TT thing, you HAVE to work up the HPDE ladder so you really know alot more about whats going on and can handle the car pretty well by the time you get signed off to compete

you're not going into a corner with some jackass that has no car control underneath you.. and usually even though it is open passing people still wait for "point bys" and/or give "the point" since once you catch someone and need to pull a mid-corner pass that lap is shot anyway so it doesn't help you to rush the pass. Most of the time they'll just wait a bit for you to signal where you want them to go around you whereas once you cross into the WtW realm, if they see an opening they're going for it... and in TT you're not going to squeeze someone during a pass you're going to give more than enough room, etc. Its pretty courteous considering how competitive it can be

[Sylvan]

Originally Posted by Gairloch

Remember that if you go into competition classes you have to have full race prep. This means race seats, 5+ point harness, cage, engine kill switch, tow points etc etc. Race cars are rarely street legal by the time all the prep is done.

I suggest that for your first race car your A #1 priority be SAFETY. You're not going to be competitive for quite a while unless you're a driving natural and it takes time to get used to dealing with traffic and figuring out race lines, which is very different than figuring out fast lines.

I'm sure Ken could tell you even more about this since he's got more WtW experience than I do.

Yea, no worries. That's why I would buy an additional mr2 so I could race prep it and not have to mess up my street car. And I won't be doing this overnight Lots of time for me to get experience...