NASA Performance Touring series

Sylvan · 02-01-2008, 07:27 AM

Ok I figured I'd start a new thread that is a bit more defined in scope.

So I'm sitting here at work, not much to do, so I grab the PT classification form and figure out what my current car's classification would be if I were to use it as it is right now. (91 turbo)

I tallied up +36 modification points.
Then I have to add +14 because the MR2 T has a ** on the base class (right?)

So my total modification points for up-classing is +50. That's up 2 classes. That would put me in PTC, and a quick glance at some cars that start in PTC are Supra TT, 350Z, EVO 8, etc. That's not good news, considering those cars with mild mods would probably smoke me. (BPU supra would not incur enough points to go up a class, and he'd be >400whp, for example).

Ok, and another snag: I have a CT27, and because that's a modified turbo I would have to submit dyno sheets for re-classification into a new base class. I have a question, then. If I dyno my car, certain mods like my boost controller, exhaust, intercooler might give me a value of, say 250whp. Now what if I get placed in a higher base class based on my power, would I then have to assess points again for those mods that gave me that 250whp? It would suck to be base classed into PTC and then get docked points again for boost controller, exhaust, intercooler and maybe get bumped up again into A.

Sylvan · 02-01-2008, 07:36 AM

Ok, forget that last paragraph I wrote. I RTFM and noticed the sentence, "After re-classification, modification points will not be assessed for weight reduction or engine. However, if the power otuput of the vehicle is later increased, the participant will have to get the vehicle re-classified again."

That makes sense. So if my weight and rwhp puts me in PTC as a base class, then I can remove 10 points from my weight modification, and 14 points from engine mods, so then my total mod points would be +26, which is up ONE class, to B. I could probably tweak or remove some mods so that I don't go up a class. I like how there is some flexibility to tailor the mods to your liking and stay in a class.

Gairloch · 02-01-2008, 07:56 AM

What are your mods? No way an MR2 should land in PTB unless it's massively altered.

Sylvan · 02-01-2008, 08:58 AM

I was hypothesizing that my current weight/whp (approximately 2600 lb/250whp) would put me in a base class PTC. I pulled that out of nowhere because I don't know what formula they would use. Anyway, here's what I came up with:
Front tire: 205mm (-7) <-- base class tire size is 235mm
Rear tire: 255mm (+4)
Coilovers (damper): (+3)
Coilovers (spring): (+2)
TRD sway bars: (+2)
Track width increase > 3 inches: (+6) <-- I have to verify this, I figured it would be the case with my wide rear tires, but I haven't measured.

Total: +10 modification points.
Now, because of my CT27, I would have to submit for re-classing based on my minimum competition weight and dyno hp.
On the rules page for MR2 Turbo it is designated as ** so would I still have to add +14 after getting a new base class? I guess that part is still a bit confusing.

kbrew8991 · 02-01-2008, 02:00 PM

you only take 1 set of points for tires, and its the largest (split size guys like us get screwed a bit here, ah well)

so your really looking at
255s +4
coilover +5
sways +2
subtotal = 11
** = 14
total = 25, up one with lots of room (to TTD/PTD)

and I don't think your track width will change that much, its measured from the center of the tread so as long as you're not running really wide offsets, spacers, etc

Sylvan · 02-07-2008, 05:50 AM

Thanks for the clarification on the tires. Some of these rules are confusing to racing noobs like myself. The Time Trials don't require a cage, right? That sounds like a good place to start out in before I take the plunge into w2w. About cages though, have you guys heard anything (good, or bad) about the Autopower bolt-in cages? I saw a picture of their MR2 one and it looked pretty good. I couldn't see the rear bars, though. i didn't know if they just extended as far as the firewall behind the seat and bolted to that, or if they pierced the firewall and bolted to something else like the shock mount.

Gairloch · 02-07-2008, 05:54 AM

Time Trials only requires factory safety equipment.

I don't know that I'd want to trust my life to a bolt in cage. If I go with a cage it's going to be as strong as I can feasibly afford.

Sylvan · 02-07-2008, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gairloch

Time Trials only requires factory safety equipment.

I don't know that I'd want to trust my life to a bolt in cage. If I go with a cage it's going to be as strong as I can feasibly afford.

I share your concerns about safety, and I would like a nice custom welded-in cage. But once you do that there's no turning back. I guess by then if you're 100% committed to the racing thing, then the car is pretty much a write-off anyways. I would imagine it would cost a couple of grand to have a shop fabricate one for you, then another grand or more for a seat, then another grand for a HANS and a harness, and who knows what else. Ugh.

Gairloch · 02-07-2008, 06:21 AM

If you convert a car for use in WtW racing then you're never going to use it for street driving again.

Yep

The barrier to entry in wtw racing is pretty high.

kbrew8991 · 02-07-2008, 11:24 AM

this is what makes the NASA ladder so much more logical (well, at least if you're going into PT). TT uses the same car classing and lets you piece together your safety stuff as you can afford it and once its completed you can play with both

HANS does have a new $695 model that is just as strong but made from heavier materials (so its 2lbs instead of 1lb, yippie). Pony up for the sliding tethers though, its an extra ~$35. I *really* think the Safety Solutions R3 is a better H&N restraint (self contained, bit better overall test results IMO), but just research them all and choose what fits your situation the best. That may be a HANS for you, may be the R3, may be some other SFI38.1 spec device. Biggest piece of advice I've been given - buy the best seat you can afford first (full containment, head supports, rib supports, etc), then spend whats left on H&N. The idea being that the seat protects in alot of different impacts whereas the H&N only protects in 2 types (head-on and damn near head-on)....

on cages, well, I don't even know that you can get a logbook (ie pass initial racecar tech) with a bolt in cage anymore. Check the CCRs to be sure. But if the plates are big enough you could weld it in the car in the future if its a good basis. When I convert my car over to SCCA ITA/NASA PTE I had just planned on dropping the car off at Kirk Racing in Alabama or the cage builder that Conover Motorsports uses around Greensboro NC so I can get the cage fit *really* tight and maximize the chassis stiffening possibilities within the rules, something thats hard to do with a bolt-in kit. It'll cost alot more, but something like that is a one-time cost and could be the difference between just making the podium and the top step

the differences between a bottom rung TT effort (can still win stuff, look at me...) and a bottom rung WTW effort are staggering (towing, safety equipment mainly), its all in if its worth it to you or not. It hasn't been quite worth it to me, thats how I've ended up with ~85 track hours (about 40hrs in TT alone) without a single actual race yet

I'll probably hit ~90hrs before comp school in March where I'll be borrowing my friend's SpecE30 and hopefully partnering with him for the 3hr enduro that weekend (enduros usually are more tame than a 20min sprint...)

02-01-2008, 07:27 AM	#1 (permalink)
Sylvan Bad Dude Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 878 Thanks: 22 Thanked 38 Times in 34 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	NASA Performance Touring series Ok I figured I'd start a new thread that is a bit more defined in scope. So I'm sitting here at work, not much to do, so I grab the PT classification form and figure out what my current car's classification would be if I were to use it as it is right now. (91 turbo) I tallied up +36 modification points. Then I have to add +14 because the MR2 T has a ** on the base class (right?) So my total modification points for up-classing is +50. That's up 2 classes. That would put me in PTC, and a quick glance at some cars that start in PTC are Supra TT, 350Z, EVO 8, etc. That's not good news, considering those cars with mild mods would probably smoke me. (BPU supra would not incur enough points to go up a class, and he'd be >400whp, for example). Ok, and another snag: I have a CT27, and because that's a modified turbo I would have to submit dyno sheets for re-classification into a new base class. I have a question, then. If I dyno my car, certain mods like my boost controller, exhaust, intercooler might give me a value of, say 250whp. Now what if I get placed in a higher base class based on my power, would I then have to assess points again for those mods that gave me that 250whp? It would suck to be base classed into PTC and then get docked points again for boost controller, exhaust, intercooler and maybe get bumped up again into A.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

02-01-2008, 07:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
Sylvan Bad Dude Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 878 Thanks: 22 Thanked 38 Times in 34 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	Ok, forget that last paragraph I wrote. I RTFM and noticed the sentence, "After re-classification, modification points will not be assessed for weight reduction or engine. However, if the power otuput of the vehicle is later increased, the participant will have to get the vehicle re-classified again." That makes sense. So if my weight and rwhp puts me in PTC as a base class, then I can remove 10 points from my weight modification, and 14 points from engine mods, so then my total mod points would be +26, which is up ONE class, to B. I could probably tweak or remove some mods so that I don't go up a class. I like how there is some flexibility to tailor the mods to your liking and stay in a class.

02-01-2008, 07:56 AM	#3 (permalink)
Gairloch Dreaming of apexes Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,313 Thanks: 139 Thanked 296 Times in 264 Posts Blog Entries: 4 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	What are your mods? No way an MR2 should land in PTB unless it's massively altered.

02-01-2008, 08:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sylvan Bad Dude Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 878 Thanks: 22 Thanked 38 Times in 34 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	I was hypothesizing that my current weight/whp (approximately 2600 lb/250whp) would put me in a base class PTC. I pulled that out of nowhere because I don't know what formula they would use. Anyway, here's what I came up with: Front tire: 205mm (-7) <-- base class tire size is 235mm Rear tire: 255mm (+4) Coilovers (damper): (+3) Coilovers (spring): (+2) TRD sway bars: (+2) Track width increase > 3 inches: (+6) <-- I have to verify this, I figured it would be the case with my wide rear tires, but I haven't measured. Total: +10 modification points. Now, because of my CT27, I would have to submit for re-classing based on my minimum competition weight and dyno hp. On the rules page for MR2 Turbo it is designated as ** so would I still have to add +14 after getting a new base class? I guess that part is still a bit confusing.

02-01-2008, 02:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
kbrew8991 gimme some turns Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,685 Thanks: 76 Thanked 82 Times in 70 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	you only take 1 set of points for tires, and its the largest (split size guys like us get screwed a bit here, ah well) so your really looking at 255s +4 coilover +5 sways +2 subtotal = 11 ** = 14 total = 25, up one with lots of room (to TTD/PTD) and I don't think your track width will change that much, its measured from the center of the tread so as long as you're not running really wide offsets, spacers, etc

02-07-2008, 05:50 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sylvan Bad Dude Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 878 Thanks: 22 Thanked 38 Times in 34 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (10/100% )	Thanks for the clarification on the tires. Some of these rules are confusing to racing noobs like myself. The Time Trials don't require a cage, right? That sounds like a good place to start out in before I take the plunge into w2w. About cages though, have you guys heard anything (good, or bad) about the Autopower bolt-in cages? I saw a picture of their MR2 one and it looked pretty good. I couldn't see the rear bars, though. i didn't know if they just extended as far as the firewall behind the seat and bolted to that, or if they pierced the firewall and bolted to something else like the shock mount.

02-07-2008, 05:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
Gairloch Dreaming of apexes Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,313 Thanks: 139 Thanked 296 Times in 264 Posts Blog Entries: 4 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	Time Trials only requires factory safety equipment. I don't know that I'd want to trust my life to a bolt in cage. If I go with a cage it's going to be as strong as I can feasibly afford.

02-07-2008, 06:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
Gairloch Dreaming of apexes Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,313 Thanks: 139 Thanked 296 Times in 264 Posts Blog Entries: 4 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	If you convert a car for use in WtW racing then you're never going to use it for street driving again. Yep The barrier to entry in wtw racing is pretty high.

02-07-2008, 11:24 AM	#10 (permalink)
kbrew8991 gimme some turns Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,685 Thanks: 76 Thanked 82 Times in 70 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	this is what makes the NASA ladder so much more logical (well, at least if you're going into PT). TT uses the same car classing and lets you piece together your safety stuff as you can afford it and once its completed you can play with both HANS does have a new $695 model that is just as strong but made from heavier materials (so its 2lbs instead of 1lb, yippie). Pony up for the sliding tethers though, its an extra ~$35. I really think the Safety Solutions R3 is a better H&N restraint (self contained, bit better overall test results IMO), but just research them all and choose what fits your situation the best. That may be a HANS for you, may be the R3, may be some other SFI38.1 spec device. Biggest piece of advice I've been given - buy the best seat you can afford first (full containment, head supports, rib supports, etc), then spend whats left on H&N. The idea being that the seat protects in alot of different impacts whereas the H&N only protects in 2 types (head-on and damn near head-on).... on cages, well, I don't even know that you can get a logbook (ie pass initial racecar tech) with a bolt in cage anymore. Check the CCRs to be sure. But if the plates are big enough you could weld it in the car in the future if its a good basis. When I convert my car over to SCCA ITA/NASA PTE I had just planned on dropping the car off at Kirk Racing in Alabama or the cage builder that Conover Motorsports uses around Greensboro NC so I can get the cage fit really tight and maximize the chassis stiffening possibilities within the rules, something thats hard to do with a bolt-in kit. It'll cost alot more, but something like that is a one-time cost and could be the difference between just making the podium and the top step the differences between a bottom rung TT effort (can still win stuff, look at me...) and a bottom rung WTW effort are staggering (towing, safety equipment mainly), its all in if its worth it to you or not. It hasn't been quite worth it to me, thats how I've ended up with ~85 track hours (about 40hrs in TT alone) without a single actual race yet I'll probably hit ~90hrs before comp school in March where I'll be borrowing my friend's SpecE30 and hopefully partnering with him for the 3hr enduro that weekend (enduros usually are more tame than a 20min sprint...)