Opinions on the "Mega-Squirt" EMS? : Ongoing MegaSquirt Discussion

[toyotaspeed90]

i generally go against the flow of what a lot of people do and/or what advice is given by the 'masses'..... i was taught mainly by one of the best toyota guys (probably in the nation) around.... and he generally does things that way

the best example is my ae92.... smallport 4age running on a modified 4afe ecu.... EVERYONE told me it couldn't be done, the engine wouldn't run right, etc etc etc.... as far as i know, we were the first to accomplish the task... it outruns most mk1 mr2's and ae86's

so, that's another reason i like MS....

[Enthalpy]

Going against the crowd for the sake of going against the crowd isn't a valid reason. If you have real technical reasons to buck the trend, then it's worth investigating. This is how a lot of new ideas see the light of day.

[Weasy2k]

Its only 2 of us really, there really is no masses, here. We arnt saying "go with what everyone is doing", we are talking from experience (more so on enthalpy's side) vs just hearing things.

[PETC]

I don't understand the argument... if megasquirt is done correctly and tuned correctly it is a perfectly good system to use.

[Enthalpy]

It depends on your definition of "perfectly good".

It will net you full power, as dictated by the engine's mechanical limitations (breathing, etc.). However, it won't be an all-weather EMS, you will have to retune it. You won't get great gas mileage. You MIGHT have a hard time passing emissions. The EMS won't respond perfectly under ALL conditions.

So...Will it work? Of course! It's all in the customer's definition of "acceptable". For some, this is a fantastic EMS because it lets them tinker for a $200 hardware investment.

Perfect!

For others, that last gallon of gas is what they sweat, along with perfect drivability, and this isn't their EMS.

I'm not saying this is a terrible EMS, I'm saying people should make this decisions with their eyes open.

[toyotaspeed90]

but for the most part.... anyone putting an aftermarket EMS into their car isn't looking for peak economy and/or reliablity (usually because by this point they have modified the car past it's stock EMS capabilities... and once you start modifying the motor to that extent you lose reliability...)

[Enthalpy]

Reliability: True, but why introduce unnecessary sources of failure?

Peak Economy: Not true. My 310 rwhp EMS-controlled car usually gets 34 mpg, and I can't remember a time when I got below 30. I live in a state where the temp fluctuates a LOT, and I frequently change altitude.

[toyotaspeed90]

Originally Posted by Enthalpy

Peak Economy: Not true. My 310 rwhp EMS-controlled car usually gets 34 mpg, and I can't remember a time when I got below 30. I live in a state where the temp fluctuates a LOT, and I frequently change altitude.

good tuning on a megasquirt ecu will yield similar results..... to those just reading this post and not completely understanding would say "hey, 310hp and 30mpg... that's incredible".... but you're not exactly showing the whole truth

turbocharged cars are great for making peak power..... but at cruising speeds there isn't a large amount of boost.... in a well tuned map, cruising (ie non wot parts of the map) will be tended to as well, trying to get close to the afr required.... meaning, if you're going 60mph with no boost, then the section of the map the motor is in should be tuned for both ignition and fuel.. yielding higher mpg... there's no reason a 300+whp car on MS couldn't yield the same mpg results

we have ever-changing temps here in washington state as well.... it can be 85* one day and the following in the 40*s and raining.... my old mr2 showed the same mpg regardless (not that I watched it extently... but driving it a lot you tend to learn what sort of mileage you're getting)

[Enthalpy]

I will say it once again. MS is not a world-class EMS. It's cool for tinkering, and it provides CHEAP EMS functionality, but it's not world-class. Here are just some of the ways MS won't be as good as an Autronic, for example:

-Linear IAT compensation map
-2D, linear coolant map
-No charge estimation map
-No engine load relative to ambient pressure
-Very sketchy acceleration enrichment handling

Some of the MS versions also have:
-Maps that are too small
-Hardware that is insufficient to drive certain GPOs.
-Forced batch firing due to its inability to see a 24/1 cam pattern on the 3S engine.

[MuMan]

The DIY aspect of MS seems to bring it a lot of critism, as if it should be dismissed as a backyard EMS. This isn't the case, there's thousands of electronic kits out there doing all sorts of things, that are as good as commercial products. As long as the electronic components are of sufficiently high quality, assembly & soldering skills up to standard, there's no difference.
Hell, if you had a circuit diagram, you could duplicate an AEM or Motec or any other EMS for that matter.

What I'm interested in is how the MS&S is configured. As in does it function with stock MR2 sensors, or do they need to be re-configured or replaced. Is it compatible with the OEM wiring and adapt to OEM connector. What type of knock control options etc. Are there any deficienties in the programming.

All EMS's do the same thing basically, it's just a matter of what whistles and bells they have, what options, and aditional outputs etc. They all have to be programmed and tuned to the specific vehicle.
I'm interested also, but I don't want to mess around forever pioneering the best setup for the 3SGTE, I want to get what's necessary, and fit it. Do it once, and get it right.

^^ BTW doesn't the 'error' board deal with the 3SGTE dual trigger distributor.
and really, I wouldn't install the MS without setting up a crank trigger anyhow.

Oh, and I doubt if anyone could get this setup right for a couple of hundred bucks. By the time you look at multiple outputs, sensors, O2 WB, data-loging, triggering, ignition etc...gonna be like 5 times that. But maybe it's worth it, it's still half the cost of an AEM with all the options as well.
Just my thoughts..

[Enthalpy]

Actually, it's pretty much impossible to reproduce the quality of a machine-built part on every joint. At some point, you are going to be human.

it's still half the cost of an AEM with all the options as well.
Just my thoughts..

Really? All the options, eh? You sure about that? Show me traction control, switchable anti-lag, switchable boost mapping, coolant-compensated IAT, and spark and fuel idle control, to name a few off the top of my head.

[TomsMR2]

thats great and all.. but im betting you have no real world experience on how much that actually affects power output

the people who have an MS unit properly installed and tuned on their car dont seem to be having tuning problems, or driveability problems, or power problems, or gas economy problems.. or well.. any problems for that matter. it doesnt have a lot of bells and whistles, but it doesnt seem to *need* them either.

[Enthalpy]

As a matter of fact, I have tuned many EMSes (including the MS) for years now.

You are right, power production is a basic function that any EMS can do. The rubber meets the road (so to speak) with the options and drivability.

Carburetors controlled engines to an acceptable level for their time. By modern standards, however, they suck.

MS controls an engine acceptably well. However, there are much better options out there! They are likely more expensive, but they are better.

[TomsMR2]

ah i apologize. the majority of people who tune standard ems's dont touch MS's.

so if you had a car and tuned it once with a uMS, and again with an AEM.. you're saying there would be a preceivable difference in the way they drive?

[Enthalpy]

The AEM EMS isn't a world-class EMS. It's not even close. I'm saying there would be a difference if you went with Autronic or Motec. There MIGHT be a difference between the uMS and AEM EMS. I would have to think about that one.

I know tuners can get snooty about MS. I confess, I get that way too sometimes. Justified or not, I won't turn someone away if they want me to tune their MS, though.

The AEM EMS certainly has features the uMS does not have, which is a selling point for some.

MS has always been the EMS to go with if you wanted to roll your own. For that purpose, it's excellent. It has the potential to save you tons of cash if you are willing to put in the time.

On the other end of the spectrum lies PnP units, which save you TONS of time, but cost more. It's a totally different clientelle.

[MR2TuRbZ]

The MS is an absolute joke compared to an AEM EMS. i thought the idea of MS was cool when it first came out, but after playing with the program and tuning one on a neighbors DSM... i absolutely hated it, the WOT was fine, for that day, it dropped 40deg and the tune was out the window, while my AEM EMS MR2 fired up and hit everything dead on, still getting 28mpg with perfect driveability.

you get what you pay for in electronics.... the MS is cheap, what do you expect from it? nothing

I agree that the AEM EMS doesnt hold a candle to the MoTec or Autronic, but for the price of an AEM EMS, it mops up and is a terrific ems for a street car.


i'm in love with my aem ems, can you tell?

[MuMan]

Originally Posted by Enthalpy

Actually, it's pretty much impossible to reproduce the quality of a machine-built part on every joint. At some point, you are going to be human.


Really? All the options, eh? You sure about that? Show me traction control, switchable anti-lag, switchable boost mapping, coolant-compensated IAT, and spark and fuel idle control, to name a few off the top of my head.

The whistles and bells are what your refering to here. What I meant was it's still half the cost of an 'AEM with all the options' The MS does what it's intended for, and does it reasonably well from all reports. All be it that it's still under developement, like constantly, by who knows how many electronic engineers and techs that are interested in auto EMS systems...plus it's designed to be backwards compatible, so everyone that's onboard this system can take advantage of it.
I don't know enough about it yet, and I'm willing to say that, but I'm looking into what's happening with it at the moment. Most people that seem to knock it are usually ones that don't know anything about it, or electronics in general. I think it will develop eventually into a very well designed EMS..with a share of whistles and bells. There's hundreds of skilled techs working on developing this system that that are also perf. car freaks, so they want these things, same as we do.
Autronic, Motec and Haltec are all designed in AU, and trust me, they started much the same way..nothing special about any of them really, they all have specs that are loosing out in some areas. What about Apexi PFC, no whistles or bells there, yet it's one of the most used EMS's.
I'd never advise someone that doesn't have any skills in electronics at all to go and purchase a kit, and assemble it, but simple assembly and soldering stills can be learned like everything else.
Don't knock it, leave feedback for someone that can do something about it.
It's like anything else, a cheaper alternative..if you want to get involved with it. Otherwise, leave it alone and go with the name brands.

[Enthalpy]

Originally Posted by MuMan

The whistles and bells are what your refering to here. What I meant was it's still half the cost of an 'AEM with all the options' The MS does what it's intended for, and does it reasonably well from all reports. All be it that it's still under developement, like constantly, by who knows how many electronic engineers and techs that are interested in auto EMS systems...plus it's designed to be backwards compatible, so everyone that's onboard this system can take advantage of it.

I agree with this. Price/engine performance is what some people are looking for, and nothing else. For them, this is ideal.

Autronic, Motec and Haltec are all designed in AU, and trust me, they started much the same way..nothing special about any of them really, they all have specs that are loosing out in some areas. What about Apexi PFC, no whistles or bells there, yet it's one of the most used EMS's.

Maturity is definitely part of what I consider a good EMS. Most-used certainly doesn't mean best.

Don't knock it, leave feedback for someone that can do something about it.
It's like anything else, a cheaper alternative..if you want to get involved with it. Otherwise, leave it alone and go with the name brands.

I think I've been pretty objective about my comments. Of course, how objective I'm being is a subjective thing.

[TomsMR2]

The AEM EMS isn't a world-class EMS. It's not even close. I'm saying there would be a difference if you went with Autronic or Motec. There MIGHT be a difference between the uMS and AEM EMS. I would have to think about that one.

i know.. its just a common ems thats in use pretty widespread.

another thing is a lot of people do safe tunes.. "street" tunes. they're not tuning open wheel racers to the brink of explosion to squeeze out the extra power to win the race. i think especially in that tune range, you're just not going to utulize ultra high resolution.

i just think its funny that people say ms is crap, and resort to their street tuned mild mannered off-the-shelf ems thats really doing the same thing a MS unit would have. right part for the right job kinda thing.. no hitting framing nails with a sledge hammer. its not like im saying F1 teams should switch over to uMS units.. more that the features of some of these ems's are overkill for what a lot of people use the cars for.

for *most* people, i think the only realistic thing thats really wrong with the ms is that its, comparatively, difficult to use and learn. a lot of people who use it (especially for mr2's!) end up fabricating parts for it to work right, reprogramming it, fabbing ignition parts etc etc. it works, but its a crapton more hands-on and involved than plugging in an aem.

[Mekkahfire]

I want MY EMS to have that little thing that recognizes my weight, and adjusts my seat to my specific user setting when i enter the vehicle.

And a built-in washer fluid level indicator, in real time calculation.