Opinions on the "Mega-Squirt" EMS? : Ongoing MegaSquirt Discussion

[MuMan]

seriously..I cannot agree, from the oscilloscope to the engineering degree, for a lot of reasons, but I'm not sure anyone really wants to hear them.
The MS concept (EMS) is running everything from jet boats to mack trucks, and is infinitely adaptable, with a little skill, imagination and help from similar interest groups. Check it out..

[Enthalpy]

I think the definition of "a little skill" is the debate here.

Have you ever setup MS on a brand new, never-been-done-before platform? I have. Twice. It's a ROYAL pain! I have my engineering degree, I'm proficient with electronics and I can tune very well. It took a LOT of tinkering with the thing to get it to so much as correctly interpret the triggers, and that was only after we were forced to shave some of the trigger teeth and rework the reluctor gap plus add a signal conditioner. After mapping it, we could only run a handful of the stock accessories due to the limited GPO setup it has.

I'm inclined to agree with Ricky.

[MuMan]

I take your point. But that's the whole problem, if we are talking MR2 then there's no commercial hardware readily available to provide a crank angle trigger or a distributor trigger. But there never will be if we just dismiss the whole concept of MS for lack of readily available parts, or a "too hard" to install system.
I understand the error board overcomes the need for a dual, distributor trigger, but there are other ways around the problem, that's where the need for a bit of research comes into play. The input conditioning circuit is only a minor matter, and probably a number of other systems could benefit from cleaning up input signals.
There's plenty of manufactures out there supplying hardware but the 3SGTE/3SGE don't seem to be on the list. So why..

[Enthalpy]

Like Ricky said, it's a matter of finding someone who is willing to put in the inordinate amount of time who has the impressive combination of skills and ask them to roll one for this motor. That might be a tad hard to find.

The 3S-GTE is already very well-supported by much more turn-key EMS solutions like AEM and Nemesis. I suspect the interest to do the above simply isn't there.

[RickyB]

Originally Posted by MuMan

There's plenty of manufactures out there supplying hardware but the 3SGTE/3SGE don't seem to be on the list. So why..

I think Enthalpy hit it right on the head. There is adequate support for this motor already provided by the more common plug and play systems. It would be quite a challenge to develop a competing system from the MS that provides the same ease of installation+functionality+support/cost bracket as the current plug and play setups. It might not seem that way to some, but I challenge them to go ahead and prove me wrong.

[mr2greasemonkey]

Since we are having a constructive discussion on EMS' and there are a lot of people here with a thorough understanding of systems. Let's apply this knowledge to a test case and see where we come up. For the people who have experience with a variety of EMS' and those that would like to learn. Ok, for example, I'm building a car and I'd like to move onto using an EMS over my stock ecu. Since this is not a mainstream build, let's weigh the pros and cons. Anyone interested?

[MuMan]

Ok, sounds good if the other guys are interested.
But..if this is a hypothertical situation, then I think there had better be some paramaters set in advance.

[Enthalpy]

I'm not sure what you are getting at, mr2greasemonkey. Are you saying we should do the background R&D to get MS working on an example of an as-of-yet unsupported platform? I personally have 3 cars to tune in the next 2 weeks, and I work full time. It's season's eve, and I simply don't have the time to do this.

[RickyB]

The biggest pro/con of any EMS is the person who installs it and tunes it and that is the best first decision to make. A great tuner with a MS will make your car run better than a poor tuner with a MoTeC. Im not talking 9 second 1/4 miles. WOT makes for very easy tuning. I'm talking about the whole driving experience from cold start, to fuel economy, to lugging around at 40mph in 5th gear to passing the local sniffer test. If you are planning to save money by tuning the car yourself, that's fine, just realize that you will be making a huge investment in time to do what somebody else can do in a few hours.

The same goes for buying a pre-assembled system vs. a board and a bunch of parts. The kit may be fun to build once, but you will have to invest many hours in getting to the pre-assembled unit stage. If you've never built electronic kits before, then you will most likely need to purchase a few simple ones and get some experience with basic soldering and assembly techniques before you even touch something as complex as an EMS.

The question each person needs to answer for themselves when choosing an MS over any other system is how much their time is worth and how tolerant are they of not getting it right the first time. I've had MR2 customers drive into my shop with a stock ECU and leave a few hours later running an EMS fully tuned for power and drivability to their specific setup. Their total cost is $2000 out of pocket and the four hours they sat at the nearby Starbucks drinking lattes. Some of these guys were smart enough to build and install a MS and learn to tune it themselves, but at what total price? You have to be honest with yourself. If you set the cost of your time at zero, then you are not being realistic. You can work part time at that Starbucks and make more than enough to afford me or Enthalpy to EMS your car and tune it for the time you will spend on the MS project. If you do it because you want to learn as much as you can, then go the MS route since that is how you will learn the most. If you are doing it because you only have $500 right now and you must have an EMS then I suggest that you start filling out that Starbucks employment form today.

[hosh]

Well put

[wesnemo]

RickyB has a point. Like much of life, cost benefit analysis. If you calculate your time value at $-0-, then you are only kidding yourself. If you are extracting pleasure value out of the time spent in addition to the final utility of the system produced, it could be worth it.

For many, it is worth it to spend the money and have it done by someone else. Their maximum pleasure value is derived from the final driving.

[mr2greasemonkey]

I wasnt thinking of it as asking everyone to make the dream EMS set-up, haha. I was thinking more along the lines of a comparison of EMS's abilities. Say for example you have an engine that runs sequential injection. It's not an ability on the base MS unit but it is an option.

I think that anyone who is opting for a DIY EMS is probably more interested in actually learning how to set-up and tune their project vs. paying someone else to do it. Let's face it, from a retail stand point, the MS is not a high priority EMS for tuners. From the current feedback, it seems like the more educated people here would rather just use a mainstream unit instead.

Far as the cost and benefit analysis goes. You can pay someone $2000 to install your EMS and how ever much it cost whenever it developes a problem or needs more tuning. Or you can invest the time and learn how to do your own tuning with whichever EMS you choose.

I'm gonna go the MS route for awhile. It may or may not end up being the better EMS, but I will most assuredly have gained more.

[Enthalpy]

In the years of tuning I have done, I have tuned exactly 3 megasquirt setups. The types that partake in the MS path are typically the types that want to try tuning it themselves, and are also the type that are willing to accept the consequences of tuning it themselves.

I suspect that's why most tuners don't really do much with MS. It's more of a demand side thing than it is a supply side.

[RickyB]

Originally Posted by mr2greasemonkey

I'm gonna go the MS route for awhile. It may or may not end up being the better EMS, but I will most assuredly have gained more.

It is difficult to compare and contrast two EMSs based on features. You have so many different parameters to look at and its really up to each individual to judge for themselves how important each item is. In the end, unless you have years of experience it is very hard to say how much each feature is going to contribute to the overall final result. Also, different folks have differing opinions on how a car should drive and what they are willing and unwilling to live with. Some folks may not care if the car needs to sit a few minutes and warm up before it can be driven while others want to be able to start the car and immediately drive away. Also, it is very difficult for those with little experience to gauge the impact that modifications to the setup itself has on how close to an OEM feel one can achieve. No heroic amount of tuning effort will make a 800rwhp 4-cylinder monster run just like a stock setup. Furthermore, most of the feedback seen in internet forums is from folks who have only experienced one or two setups. One guy's "great" is another guy's "barely adequate" and a third guy's "send it back."

All that aside, the MS can do a good job if it is properly installed and tuned, but when you look at the total cost of the system figuring in both out of pocket expenses and time invested, I don't think that most folks will honestly be able to say that the MS offers any greater value than any of the plug and play systems available for the MR2s. I'm in no way trying to dissuade those who are truly looking for a great learning experience, but I am cautioning those who think that the MS offers a cheaper way to jump on the EMS wagon.

[TomsMR2]

the trick to MS is letting some other poor bastard spend sleepless nights adapting it to their car, and let them write the new programs and updates for it.. then use their known-good path to get yours running in a day

thats how theres 17 year old highschool kids tossing MS units on vw's very successfully, self-tuned at home with a wideband. its picking up big-time for the 4age, theres a pretty straight forward formula to run it, and its easy to setup, and with the programs its easy to tune. the self-tune feature is always getting revised and works better and better.

its a huge venture to pioneer anything.. its not a very big venture at all to duplicate someones known-good methods. this VERY much applies to the MS. it would be a much more viable mk2 option if there were 100 guys tinkering with it. i ultimately abandoned mine because of the lack of support.. i didnt have the time to invest in making it run right... maybe someone else will, and it could be a viable option for me again down the road.

[MuMan]

MS appeals to some people simply because it's a challenge, or it's an interest in itself. Others see it as a cheap alternative, one they 'can' afford. Usually the first group set the way for the second group to follow, after the best path has been established, sources located, and results in. Why do people build their own computers? because they can..plus it gives the opportunity to build a better, faster and more unique system, tailored to your own needs.
This sort of interest can lead to better things, from a pastime to a career.

How many guys are interested in doing their own tuning?..why, to save money..or to gain knowledge, experience, or just to have the satisfaction of saying I did it.
lets face it, EMS's all do the same basic thing. Some are much more refined than others, and they cost more..basic marketing, so you can almost use cost as a measure of refinement. You look at things like processor speed, map resolution, WB compatibility, aux inputs/outputs, options etc. You pay your money and have it installed and tuned, but your still none the wiser.
Some guy says this one sucks, or that one has a bad interface, or those ones are junk..all based on personal experience, preference or simply a bad experience.
None of them suck..they all work within their design paramaters and projected costs. You get what you pay for.

Vehicle electrical systems are a very crude and hostile environment. You feed an EMS unregulated, unfiltered voltage, varing anywhere between 11 and 16 volts, loaded with spikes, noise, ripple currents..subject it to EMI and RFI interferrence, and then expect it to provide rock solid control of AFR's and advance curves. O2 monitoring is to the order of 1.5volts.
What about the guy that gets his car tuned, then takes off up the road, fires up the 500w amp, with the kicker in the trunk (right next to the EMS) cranks up the air, power steering churning away, and jumps on the cb to tell his friend all about it. Massive voltage drop! so what happened to all that tuning..and what's happening right now.
Nobody seems to look at things like voltage stability, sheilding, signal quality, or even mechanical connection quality and resistance.

My point being, wether you want a cheap system that has been pioneered by others, or you want to make a system thats better, MS has got something to offer..to those particular individuals.


2c

[mr2greasemonkey]

Good points from everyone. Looks like the discussion has moved towards wether or not the "end user" is going to be content with wichever EMS they choose.

Enthalpy is correct about DIY'ers and demands for MS use.

RickyB makes a good point about the knowledge needed to use a MS. If I didnt know anything about automotive system, I'd prob be more inclined to use a more mainstream unit that I could have a professional tuner help me with or "fix" if need be.

Which leads to TomsMR2 talking about using other peoples experiences and set-ups to tune your own. The MS is advertised as a DIY EMS. Everything you need to know about how it functions is there on the website. Tuning it on the other hand is left to the installer, that's prob why they have all the caution captions hehe.

Other than the time you need to invest to make the EMS work properly I dont really see any faults with the system. I like it's open source ability which allows for possibilities outside of the normal EMS range. Adding hardware and software for specific applications.

[TomsMR2]

like people have said, WOT tuning is easy.. the MS has more than a few mid-throttle tuning programs that people are having fantastic results with. you just run the program and it starts doing what it can to hit your target AFR.

its going to get to the point where all you have to do is wire it in and drive, and the damn thing will read all your sensors, and then fully tune itself. each revision of the MS is getting more powerful processing power, more features (ignition control was the big one), and easier tuning. theres SO much on it, its extremely difficult to follow..

plus theres not really an "MS setup" anyway. when you get an AEM or something, you're running an aem, on aem hardware, software, and tuning programs. with MS, you're just running some of the base hardware, and maybe jim bob from nebraskas tune program, some guy in nevadas ignition control method, and another guys injection format. once you get the car running on a known-good format with working everything, its like a lego ems, you can just start adding or removing pretty much anything until it does what you want.

i just think its semi-unfair to make blanket statements about the MS, because the MS concept itself is so extremely broad.

[mr2greasemonkey]

Very true Tom, that's what I like most about the MS. Given the time and resources it has a lot more to offer. The 12x12 table is adequate but i'd like a bigger table. I'm going to try and see if I can change that. The last EMS that I had the opportunity to work with was an Accel. Lots of options, huge tables, the guy that was tuning it took a long time to get all the tables dialed in. At one point I was thinking, it was almost too complicated.

[TomsMR2]

anyone happen to know how many cells the stock ecus use? i wouldnt imagine they have incredibly high resolution..