3S-GTE USDM Turbo Engine car will not start

Jeff · 02-18-2007, 06:41 PM

'93T - drove for 2 miles and engine quit - will not restart.

Dealership could not find the problem other than no spark at plug and would not fire with alternate fuel source. Replaced dist. cap, ignition coil, and ignitor. About 7.5 volts getting to dist. cap with ignition on. About 10-12 volts getting to ignitor and ignition coil. Battery fully charged and fine (AutoZone tested). Check engine light will not come on for diagnostics test or when ignition in on position, but will with W grounded on diagnostics outlet. E1 is properly grounded to intake manifold. Distributor pickups checked by dealership. I'm sure other stuff was checked that I'm forgetting. It sounds like the ECU to me. Your thoughts on what to check?

Enthalpy · 02-19-2007, 01:04 PM

Verify battery voltage at the +B to E2 pins on the back of the ECU with the key on. If you don't get 12 volts, then you might have a bad ground.

If the check light comes on when you turn the key on, then goes away, then the check circuit is fine.

If the diagnostic check doesn't happen when you short TE1 and E1 in the diagnostics box, then manually short them on the back of the ECU.

If you do all of this and still don't get codes, then replace the ECU.

Jeff · 02-19-2007, 01:20 PM

I'll check that tonight. I haven't verified voltage at computer. When I turn on the ignition (not start), the check engine light does not come on now. Following the manual, I shorted the W terminal at the diagnostics terminal and it did come on. I have not fully verified the wires between the ignition and the ECU, but I have verified the ground is good from the ECU harness pins E, E1, and E2 to the ground point on the intake manifold.

Ok - battery, +B, +B1 all have battery voltage. STA - is in specification when starting. IGN - in specification with ignition on. Still no check engine light when turning key to on position.

Anybody ever work with SIA Electronics? I'm going to let them rebuild the computer. They say 1-3 day turn around time with a $290 cost.

Enthalpy · 02-19-2007, 09:37 PM

Rebuild the computer? Interesting. Let me know how that goes.

Did you measure voltage between +B and E2, or the ECU +12 volts to ECU ground? That's important.

Also - When you turn on the key the check light shouldn't STAY on, but it should come on for a second or so. If you can get it to come on LATER, that means the circuit and light bulb themselves are good.

This does sound like a bad ECU. You can get a used ECU for MUCH LESS than $290! Check out the used forums. ECUs aren't usually something that break.

PHOENIX · 02-19-2007, 09:49 PM

I can't ever recall an ECU going bad, are you sure thats it?

Do you get any CEL codes?

Jeff · 02-20-2007, 06:04 AM

I followed the procedure outlined in the Toyota manual for checking voltage at the ECU. I used the E1 for ground I believe and checked terminals +B, +B1, and batt and all had 12 volts. I also checked STA while cranking and got 6-8 volts. I think I had 2 volts on IGN with ignition on. The manual says to check it with engine idling (but obviously that can't happen). I believe I checked a few other circuits that may possibly have something to do with ignition or cranking, but I can't remember.

There was no check engine light before or after it died while driving. When I put the key in the ignition and turn to the on position, the check engine light will not come on at all, not even for a few seconds. The only way I can get the check engine light to come on at all is to ground the W terminal.

I have searched for a week now to find a used computer. I'm looking for 89661-17390. I checked the network junkyards use to list their parts for sale and submitted a request to find this part since it wasn't listed. Two weeks and no response. I checked e-bay. I checked this forum. Nothing. If someone has this part, I'll buy it right now. I can get a remanufactured part for about the same money as sending mine in for repair. It is the cheapest option I have now. The dealership cost me about $715 and had to get it towed back home when they couldn't find the problem. I have $80 in tow fees and about $80 in parts after I got it back home trying to find the problem. So another $290 isn't that much.

Thoughts on all this? Should I still try to find codes in the computer? Did the theft system malfunction? The dealership tested the theft deterrent ECU. They, among other things, checked fuses, distributor pickup's, installed a new ignitor, I put on a new distributor cap and ignition coil. I'm not sure what is left to test.

Added information - I see why E2 is important now. I checked this and I'm getting 12 volts from both +B and +B1 to E2.

Jeff · 02-26-2007, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enthalpy

Rebuild the computer? Interesting. Let me know how that goes.

Did you measure voltage between +B and E2, or the ECU +12 volts to ECU ground? That's important.

Also - When you turn on the key the check light shouldn't STAY on, but it should come on for a second or so. If you can get it to come on LATER, that means the circuit and light bulb themselves are good.

This does sound like a bad ECU. You can get a used ECU for MUCH LESS than $290! Check out the used forums. ECUs aren't usually something that break.

Well, the computer is not the problem. It tested fine today. SIA Electronics put it on their equipment and it all checked out. He said that no error codes were stored. He also said that a faulty sensor (MAF and throttle sensors common culprits) make it look like the computer is bad. So when the computer gets back, I'll start checking these things out. Any advice from the group?

Enthalpy · 02-26-2007, 02:44 PM

I have noticed a surprising number of stock AFMs that don't read correctly, even though they pass the BGB test procedure.

Do you have a buddy with a known-good sensor?

Jeff · 02-26-2007, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enthalpy

I have noticed a surprising number of stock AFMs that don't read correctly, even though they pass the BGB test procedure.

Do you have a buddy with a known-good sensor?

Nope. I'm the only one around here that has one that I know of. My dad has a '93 NA, but that is a three hour drive from here. I'll check out a few things when the computer gets back here. The air flow meter did check out. I can't apply vacuum and don't have a feeler gauge to check the throttle body sensor at this point. I may get one if this doesn't work out.

Enthalpy · 02-26-2007, 05:53 PM

NAs don't have AFMs. Toyota did a nice thing for us there.

92mr2turbo · 02-27-2007, 04:11 PM

Its sounds like to me that if +B to E2 pins on the back of the ECU with the key on if you don't get 12 volts... then something itsnt grounded right or you just not getting a good ground

Jeff · 02-27-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92mr2turbo

Its sounds like to me that if +B to E2 pins on the back of the ECU with the key on if you don't get 12 volts... then something itsnt grounded right or you just not getting a good ground

That voltage was fine. The only possible low voltage was to the ignition coil and one pin gave 12 volts while the other gave 10 volts. Other than that, all the voltages I checked were fine. When the computer gets back, I have a list of things to check. This whole thing is a big mystery.

Jeff · 03-01-2007, 12:08 PM

I got the ECU back yesterday and now the check engine light works. I'm getting code 14 when I try to crank it. Looks like the ignitor and the ECU are not communicating. Since the ignitor was replaced (Toyota part) and the computer checked out ok, I'm assuming that there is a wire problem (grounded wire) between the two. Any advice on this? Somewhere there is a small current draw with the ignition off that the dealership thought was a little on the high side but within spec.

Jeff · 03-05-2007, 06:33 PM

What is the normal voltage of IGF (return signal from the igniter) with ignition in on position? I'm getting 4.5 volts at both the ECU and the igniter harness. I can't find this specification in the BGB. I'm getting about 1 volt on IGT when cranking (in specification).

Jeff · 03-10-2007, 01:12 PM

Well, I got it cranked this afternoon! It was too simple. The igniter is grounded through the case. The Toyota mechanic just plugged up the new igniter and didn't attach it to the metal bracket for easy access. This meant that it wasn't grounded and would not send the voltage to the ignition coil and thus no return signal. So, after attaching the new igniter to the metal bracket, it cranked right up! Thanks to enthalpy and the rest of the members that responded. The car has less than 80k miles and now it has life again!

Blackout · 06-25-2009, 04:26 PM

im having somewhat the same problem, its been really nerve racking, so i had to drive up to virgina beach to drop someone off, about a 400 mile trip, the way up there was fine, but that night the roads flooded and i still had to drive through the foot tall water, everything ran fine, the next morning i go to start my car and it starts up fine, i start my trip home and not even 10 mins in i get check engine lights and the car wants to die, really had no other choice but to continue driving, then awsome, oil pump locks up, then somehow magicly frees itself. continue driving and finally get home, turn off the car and let it sit. about a day or two after, i drained the oil and filled it, when to go start the car and nothing, itll crank all day but wont start, then i started to notice that my check engine light wasnt coming on and i was getting a loud humming noise from my PS pump in the front with the ignition on. also no spark so i thought it was coil, i was looking through the fourms and someone said something about pulling the MAF sensor plug, as soon as i pulled the plug my check engine light popped back on and the humming noise stopped, the car wants to start now, alot more then it did, itll start putter and stop. any ideas? please someone try to help out this is my daily driver and i cant get to work

Jeff · 06-26-2009, 07:43 AM

Your problem doesn't really sound like what I experienced. Mine just died right were it was and I coasted to the side of the road. I never heard a humming. To solve my problem, I cleaned the bracket that the igniter was attached to since it had a little oxidation on it and put in the new igniter.

Rotorimp · 07-03-2009, 10:18 PM

I Do have a similar problem. My (91 Turbo) checK engine light does not come on unless I short W. All my B1, B and Batt have 12V. E1 and E2 Ohm out good. The main difference is that IGT and IGF only have about .07V.--When cranking. IGTto the Ignitor Ohm out good. I have 12v at the coil and Ignitor. I have slaved in a Celica GT ignitor. I have tried a direct groung from the chassis to the ignitor. I have also tried another ECU (from E-bay) I cannot jump TE1 and E1 to get the CEL to come on

I appreciate the help--

Rotorimp · 07-04-2009, 09:54 AM

Anyone have a known good ECU That I could buy?

Rotorimp · 07-05-2009, 08:18 AM

I am also curious as to why the CEL does not come on?

02-18-2007, 06:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jeff No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 16 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	car will not start '93T - drove for 2 miles and engine quit - will not restart. Dealership could not find the problem other than no spark at plug and would not fire with alternate fuel source. Replaced dist. cap, ignition coil, and ignitor. About 7.5 volts getting to dist. cap with ignition on. About 10-12 volts getting to ignitor and ignition coil. Battery fully charged and fine (AutoZone tested). Check engine light will not come on for diagnostics test or when ignition in on position, but will with W grounded on diagnostics outlet. E1 is properly grounded to intake manifold. Distributor pickups checked by dealership. I'm sure other stuff was checked that I'm forgetting. It sounds like the ECU to me. Your thoughts on what to check?

02-19-2007, 01:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
Jeff No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 16 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I'll check that tonight. I haven't verified voltage at computer. When I turn on the ignition (not start), the check engine light does not come on now. Following the manual, I shorted the W terminal at the diagnostics terminal and it did come on. I have not fully verified the wires between the ignition and the ECU, but I have verified the ground is good from the ECU harness pins E, E1, and E2 to the ground point on the intake manifold. Ok - battery, +B, +B1 all have battery voltage. STA - is in specification when starting. IGN - in specification with ignition on. Still no check engine light when turning key to on position. Anybody ever work with SIA Electronics? I'm going to let them rebuild the computer. They say 1-3 day turn around time with a $290 cost. Last edited by Jeff; 02-19-2007 at 07:51 PM.. Reason: to add more detail

02-20-2007, 06:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
Jeff No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 16 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I followed the procedure outlined in the Toyota manual for checking voltage at the ECU. I used the E1 for ground I believe and checked terminals +B, +B1, and batt and all had 12 volts. I also checked STA while cranking and got 6-8 volts. I think I had 2 volts on IGN with ignition on. The manual says to check it with engine idling (but obviously that can't happen). I believe I checked a few other circuits that may possibly have something to do with ignition or cranking, but I can't remember. There was no check engine light before or after it died while driving. When I put the key in the ignition and turn to the on position, the check engine light will not come on at all, not even for a few seconds. The only way I can get the check engine light to come on at all is to ground the W terminal. I have searched for a week now to find a used computer. I'm looking for 89661-17390. I checked the network junkyards use to list their parts for sale and submitted a request to find this part since it wasn't listed. Two weeks and no response. I checked e-bay. I checked this forum. Nothing. If someone has this part, I'll buy it right now. I can get a remanufactured part for about the same money as sending mine in for repair. It is the cheapest option I have now. The dealership cost me about $715 and had to get it towed back home when they couldn't find the problem. I have $80 in tow fees and about $80 in parts after I got it back home trying to find the problem. So another $290 isn't that much. Thoughts on all this? Should I still try to find codes in the computer? Did the theft system malfunction? The dealership tested the theft deterrent ECU. They, among other things, checked fuses, distributor pickup's, installed a new ignitor, I put on a new distributor cap and ignition coil. I'm not sure what is left to test. Added information - I see why E2 is important now. I checked this and I'm getting 12 volts from both +B and +B1 to E2. Last edited by Jeff; 02-20-2007 at 07:08 AM.. Reason: added information

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02-19-2007, 01:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
Enthalpy EMS Harmonizer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,226 Thanks: 8 Thanked 55 Times in 43 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Verify battery voltage at the +B to E2 pins on the back of the ECU with the key on. If you don't get 12 volts, then you might have a bad ground. If the check light comes on when you turn the key on, then goes away, then the check circuit is fine. If the diagnostic check doesn't happen when you short TE1 and E1 in the diagnostics box, then manually short them on the back of the ECU. If you do all of this and still don't get codes, then replace the ECU.

02-19-2007, 09:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
Enthalpy EMS Harmonizer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,226 Thanks: 8 Thanked 55 Times in 43 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Rebuild the computer? Interesting. Let me know how that goes. Did you measure voltage between +B and E2, or the ECU +12 volts to ECU ground? That's important. Also - When you turn on the key the check light shouldn't STAY on, but it should come on for a second or so. If you can get it to come on LATER, that means the circuit and light bulb themselves are good. This does sound like a bad ECU. You can get a used ECU for MUCH LESS than $290! Check out the used forums. ECUs aren't usually something that break.

02-19-2007, 09:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
PHOENIX Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: On Hiatus....... Posts: 9,266 Thanks: 92 Thanked 292 Times in 224 Posts Blog Entries: 1 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (49/100% )	I can't ever recall an ECU going bad, are you sure thats it? Do you get any CEL codes?

02-26-2007, 02:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
Enthalpy EMS Harmonizer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,226 Thanks: 8 Thanked 55 Times in 43 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	I have noticed a surprising number of stock AFMs that don't read correctly, even though they pass the BGB test procedure. Do you have a buddy with a known-good sensor?

02-26-2007, 05:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
Enthalpy EMS Harmonizer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,226 Thanks: 8 Thanked 55 Times in 43 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	NAs don't have AFMs. Toyota did a nice thing for us there.

02-27-2007, 04:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
92mr2turbo No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Its sounds like to me that if +B to E2 pins on the back of the ECU with the key on if you don't get 12 volts... then something itsnt grounded right or you just not getting a good ground

03-01-2007, 12:08 PM	#13 (permalink)
Jeff No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 16 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I got the ECU back yesterday and now the check engine light works. I'm getting code 14 when I try to crank it. Looks like the ignitor and the ECU are not communicating. Since the ignitor was replaced (Toyota part) and the computer checked out ok, I'm assuming that there is a wire problem (grounded wire) between the two. Any advice on this? Somewhere there is a small current draw with the ignition off that the dealership thought was a little on the high side but within spec.

03-05-2007, 06:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
Jeff No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 16 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	What is the normal voltage of IGF (return signal from the igniter) with ignition in on position? I'm getting 4.5 volts at both the ECU and the igniter harness. I can't find this specification in the BGB. I'm getting about 1 volt on IGT when cranking (in specification).

03-10-2007, 01:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Jeff No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 16 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Well, I got it cranked this afternoon! It was too simple. The igniter is grounded through the case. The Toyota mechanic just plugged up the new igniter and didn't attach it to the metal bracket for easy access. This meant that it wasn't grounded and would not send the voltage to the ignition coil and thus no return signal. So, after attaching the new igniter to the metal bracket, it cranked right up! Thanks to enthalpy and the rest of the members that responded. The car has less than 80k miles and now it has life again!

06-25-2009, 04:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
Blackout No Skills Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	im having somewhat the same problem, its been really nerve racking, so i had to drive up to virgina beach to drop someone off, about a 400 mile trip, the way up there was fine, but that night the roads flooded and i still had to drive through the foot tall water, everything ran fine, the next morning i go to start my car and it starts up fine, i start my trip home and not even 10 mins in i get check engine lights and the car wants to die, really had no other choice but to continue driving, then awsome, oil pump locks up, then somehow magicly frees itself. continue driving and finally get home, turn off the car and let it sit. about a day or two after, i drained the oil and filled it, when to go start the car and nothing, itll crank all day but wont start, then i started to notice that my check engine light wasnt coming on and i was getting a loud humming noise from my PS pump in the front with the ignition on. also no spark so i thought it was coil, i was looking through the fourms and someone said something about pulling the MAF sensor plug, as soon as i pulled the plug my check engine light popped back on and the humming noise stopped, the car wants to start now, alot more then it did, itll start putter and stop. any ideas? please someone try to help out this is my daily driver and i cant get to work

06-26-2009, 07:43 AM	#17 (permalink)
Jeff No Skills Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 16 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Your problem doesn't really sound like what I experienced. Mine just died right were it was and I coasted to the side of the road. I never heard a humming. To solve my problem, I cleaned the bracket that the igniter was attached to since it had a little oxidation on it and put in the new igniter.

07-03-2009, 10:18 PM	#18 (permalink)
Rotorimp No Skills Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I Do have a similar problem. My (91 Turbo) checK engine light does not come on unless I short W. All my B1, B and Batt have 12V. E1 and E2 Ohm out good. The main difference is that IGT and IGF only have about .07V.--When cranking. IGTto the Ignitor Ohm out good. I have 12v at the coil and Ignitor. I have slaved in a Celica GT ignitor. I have tried a direct groung from the chassis to the ignitor. I have also tried another ECU (from E-bay) I cannot jump TE1 and E1 to get the CEL to come on I appreciate the help--

07-04-2009, 09:54 AM	#19 (permalink)
Rotorimp No Skills Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Anyone have a known good ECU That I could buy?

07-05-2009, 08:18 AM	#20 (permalink)
Rotorimp No Skills Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I am also curious as to why the CEL does not come on?