3GENJDM: Gen3 Debate

[hmong337]

Gen3 is so tempting and makes reasonable sense if you're shooting in the 300hp range. And even better if you're 5SFE'd right now and plan to turbo swap. It just doesn't make sense why you'd want an engine that you can't find parts for; or have a hard time locating parts. This is the only big draw back that I see with the Gen3.

[analogvoid]

Parts aquisition could be an issue. What percentage of the parts on the GEN3 are not available in the US.

[mister3]

Originally Posted by analogvoid

Parts aquisition could be an issue. What percentage of the parts on the GEN3 are not available in the US.

the percantage is pretty small BUT the majority of those parts will keep your car from running or running properly.

several of us are working on a solution to these issues and hopefully will get gen3 parts in stock most all the time.

[analogvoid]

The gen3 is very tempting.. but because I want to use the car as a daily driver, i think that it's best to play it safe with a gen2.

[Dumbscout]

lol, I was thinking that going with the Gen IIII would be the safe way to go, for a daily Driver.

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by kblake

Ah, my bad-I didn't have your setup memorized. The top end power difference between my plot and yours is negligible, especially in light of the fact that you were running 1 more PSI of boost than I am.

You are holding a fair bit more power on top than the stock Gen 2, showing the benefits of the larger intake cam and better intake manifold. Nonetheless, both Gen 2's have more area under the torque curve, despite your slight top end advantage. Both Gen 2's are running conservative street tunes, designed to last for at least 100k miles.

We all know that what wins a race is more "the nut behind the wheel" than which car has more power. If you were beating those other cars, it is likely that it's because you are a better driver than the guys driving those other cars.

Didn't that motor blow up? I hear Dvaidv's gen3 is still running strong. Oh btw so is my same unopened gen3. This is the exact reason I have a gen3. I wonder how you feel about Chrisk's opinion on gen3 head flow now. You are obviously crucifying him at this point. May be you'll disagree with his testing now. I'll keep my gen3 and I've had many of each gen2 and gen3. How's your Supra?

[3sgtepower]

With $500 in bolt ons, my NA to T 3rd gen that I bought for $6500, ran 12.8@108.3mph on bald street tires and a 90 degree day.

I suspect its capable of 11's when I get the new sb50 on there, and some DR's maybe.

[kblake]

Originally Posted by 47mr2's

Didn't that motor blow up? I hear Dvaidv's gen3 is still running strong. Oh btw so is my same unopened gen3. This is the exact reason I have a gen3. I wonder how you feel about Chrisk's opinion on gen3 head flow now. You are obviously crucifying him at this point. May be you'll disagree with his testing now. I'll keep my gen3 and I've had many of each gen2 and gen3. How's your Supra?

Yup, sure did. I guess I should have put a new factory short block in it. Oh well, 20/20 hindsight.

He didn't post his opinion. He posted flowcharts. I'm not crucifying him, I'm simply making people aware of the issues that I, and others have experienced, and how those issues were resolved by Chris.

BTW, since this discussion started, I've had the opportunity to drive two Gen 3's, one with BPU, the other with a KO SB50. They were both lag monsters. (IMO) I'm not surprised by that really, since stock vs. stock, the Gen 3 reaches peak torque about 1000RPM later than the Gen2, despite it's quicker spooling stock turbo.

The Supra is amazing. I expected it to feel "big" after 11+ years in one MR2 or another, but it doesn't. It's currently making 427RWHP/431RWTQ on 92 octane+methanol injection. I'm in the process of putting together a 67mm single kit. I should be driving it this Summer at about 600WHP on the street with at least 400 ft-lbs on tap from 4K RPM on up. The goal is to run 11's, and trap 135MPH. After that, I will hang up the drag radials, and go back to my first love, the road course.

Ken

[redvalkyrie]

BTW, since this discussion started, I've had the opportunity to drive two Gen 3's, one with BPU, the other with a KO SB50. They were both lag monsters. (IMO) I'm not surprised by that really, since stock vs. stock, the Gen 3 reaches peak torque about 1000RPM later than the Gen2, despite it's quicker spooling stock turbo.

Can you go into a little more detail about your experiences here? What qualifies as a "lag monster" in your opinion?

[imweip]

My Gen3 was by no means a lag monster, but it did have a top mount IC instead of side mount, it cut out a lot of IC piping with that method.

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by imweip

My Gen3 was by no means a lag monster, but it did have a top mount IC instead of side mount, it cut out a lot of IC piping with that method.

I've owned 4 diferent gen3 setups as well and I wouldn't call them lag monsters either. My current uses the st205 a2wic and it has no lag. The throttle response is unreal on it. I am running the stock turbo with no tunning or boost controller as well. I did have a chance to compare this to my friends gen2 with ATS rom tune for 550's, berk ic and ct-27 @18 psi. My car outspooled it in the low end by quite a bit in fact it stayed ahead by at least 3 cars the entire time. This was a rolling start as well My last one used the blitz dsbc specr with the greddy ic. It was by no means laggy either. In fact it was hard to drive without being on boost all the time. It dynoed @17psi on pump gas 270 whp and 275ftlbs of torque keep in mind I am at 5000ft. I do like the gen2 motor but I must say the gen3 is superior out of the box. I am not a guy who believes in rebuilds. Every built or rebuilt engine I've seen leaks oil and doesn't go the miles. I don't want to have to fix my car and I will sell an engine that leaks oil and replace it with one that doesn't. Rebuilt alternators are in the same boat. A used alternator with reasonable miles will last way longer than a rebuilt one will. I like to drive my car so low mileage newer gen3 motors are the choice for me.

[kblake]

Originally Posted by redvalkyrie

Can you go into a little more detail about your experiences here? What qualifies as a "lag monster" in your opinion?

The BPU car didn't start really moving until just before 4000RPM. The SB50 car was quite a bit later than that.

[PETC]

So, I'm seriously considering a Gen III swap this summer with some BPUs, and the best gasoline we have around here is 92...

What *exactly* do people mean when they say it has a hard time running on 91/92? I'd like this to be explained further, as I think it will help me make my decision.

To me the Gen III is everything I want in a turbo conversion right out of the box, and the numbers that people are putting down with basic BPUs are astonishing.

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by kblake

The BPU car didn't start really moving until just before 4000RPM. The SB50 car was quite a bit later than that.

You must not have driven very good ones then. That is the only thing I can think of to explain lag monster driveability. May be you are just too used to the Supra at this point. I know supra's with the stock turbos hit boost pretty quickly. My car currently without a boost controller hits 15 psi by 3500 and 7psi by 2300. This is not what I would call laggy. When I had my boost controller on my last setup it spooled even quicker. A ct20b on a gen3 spools much quicker than it does on a gen2 without question.

[kblake]

The first one I drove was Andrew McGibbon's car, at NA2005. I was still driving Deuce Coupe on the 2.2L stroker/TD06 at that point, so that might account for the Gen 3 feeling laggy to me. 3rd gear pull at 16PSI with no boost control:



The 50 trim car I drove was John Santesson's, and I actually was thinking that the Supra might have tainted my objectivity (325 ft-lbs @ 3000RPM in sequential) but John and others who have driven the car felt the same way, and have been advising others to get the SB46 or TD06, so maybe that one is mostly the fault of the SB50. I know it's not a good match for a stock VE gen2, perhaps the gen3 VE is still insufficient to make the SB50 a better choice than the SB46?

Ken

[PETC]

Anyone want to help cover this Gen III and 91/92 octane fuel thing for me a little more in depth?

[Matt94MR2]

Originally Posted by PETC

Anyone want to help cover this Gen III and 91/92 octane fuel thing for me a little more in depth?

I run 92 octane in my Gen3 and IMO it is fine at stockish boost levels although certainly not optimal. Sometimes when the weather is real warm I can feel it pull a little timing in the higher gears. I usually throw a couple gallons of race gas in it if I'm going to the track or running more then 15psi or so.

Originally Posted by kblake

BTW, since this discussion started, I've had the opportunity to drive two Gen 3's, one with BPU, the other with a KO SB50. They were both lag monsters. (IMO) I'm not surprised by that really, since stock vs. stock, the Gen 3 reaches peak torque about 1000RPM later than the Gen2, despite it's quicker spooling stock turbo.
Ken

Hi Ken, I think "lag monster" is a bit of an exaggeration for a BPU Gen3 . Although it does have a higher boost threshold then a CT26 powered Gen2 I much prefer the more linear powerband of the Gen3. I too had the opportunity to drive John's car and while it was a little laggy it more then made up for it once the power hit. I'll let you drive my car sometime if you want to since I still owe you one for letting my drive Deuce Coupe and converting me to the dark side .

[Luni]

My buddy Borinal has a Gen3 here in Utah and he has a Mines ECU and he runs 91 octane and his car NEVER Pulls timing, it never has an issue with spool, cold starts, or anything like I experience in my Gen2.

The only thing I can say bad about the Gen3 is that whole coolant passage/cylinder wall thickness issue thing that several people have had problems with cracked coolant passages between 3 and 4.

Other than that, Gen3 is the way to go IMO. In order to make the Gen2 comparable to a Gen3, it would cost more than 1000 dollars for sure. The price is worth it. Especially if you just want to enjoy it and not mod it to the teeth.

Getting a Gen2 engine to over 300hp safely is alot of work. Getting a Gen3 one is just a turbo kit and maybe a fuel pump away.

[mister3]

Originally Posted by Luni

My buddy Borinal has a Gen3 here in Utah and he has a Mines ECU and he runs 91 octane and his car NEVER Pulls timing, it never has an issue with spool, cold starts, or anything like I experience in my Gen2.

The only thing I can say bad about the Gen3 is that whole coolant passage/cylinder wall thickness issue thing that several people have had problems with cracked coolant passages between 3 and 4.

Other than that, Gen3 is the way to go IMO. In order to make the Gen2 comparable to a Gen3, it would cost more than 1000 dollars for sure. The price is worth it. Especially if you just want to enjoy it and not mod it to the teeth.

Getting a Gen2 engine to over 300hp safely is alot of work. Getting a Gen3 one is just a turbo kit and maybe a fuel pump away.

the MINES ECU has alot to do with running low octane and car behaving correctly.... on the gen2 engines i can run 87 just fine but if i swap to the JDM OEM ECU it'll pull timing like no other.... MINES is just more forgiving

[Luni]

He still ran awesome with the stock ECU. It still never pulled timing.

Even driving the car through the California/Nevada desert (the Mojave) at 110-120 degrees it wasnt necessarily as FAST as it should be, but it still felt alot more linear, smoother, and it has CONSISTENTLY in this altitude/climate ran better than my Gen2. Id rather have his engine over mine any day of the week.