3S-GTE USDM Turbo Engine 6 speed 3sgte????

mr2_mk1.5 · 10-15-2009, 01:35 AM

I was wondering as I'm starting to suffer the 2nd gear synchro problem with the e153 is it possible to adapt a 6 speed standard to a 3sgte because it would be nice to cruise down the highway with a 6th gear to keep the rpms down

Sang · 10-15-2009, 01:51 AM

Having a 6 speed doesn't mean that another gear is plopped onto the end to cruise a lower rpms, all the gearing changes.

If you want to lower cruising speed rpms then get a different final drive.

alphaerror · 10-15-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sang

If you want to lower cruising speed rpms then get a different final drive.

Excellent point AND idea. How would one do that Sang? (seriously, I'm interested in knowing if that's even possible?)

brianbooth · 10-15-2009, 04:45 PM

You can put the final drive from a celica into it. The stock MR2 Turbo FD is 4.28:1 ratio while the celica one is 3.93:1. There's also a 3.625:1 and is harder to find but apparently still possible. Gouky has done the 3.625 change and could tell you more about it than me but he seemed to think that the 3.93 would be a more reasonable choice than what he went with.

Here's the part numbers for what you'd need for the 3.625:1

33321-33010, 9107-9308, Shaft, Output
41221-32060, 9107-9308, Gear, Front Differential Ring
33407-33010, 9107-9308, Gear sub-assy, Manual transmission oil pump drive

And for the 3.933

3.933 Shaft, Output 33321-20120
3.933 Gear, Ring 41221-12240
3.933 Gear, Oil Pump 33407-12011

Just keep in mind that all your gears will be higher after doing one of these swaps so you're losing a little acceleration to gain top speed and lower highway revs.

RePete · 10-15-2009, 06:40 PM

Some excellent info, Brian. Thanks for that. The standard 5th gear revs at 3,000 RPM at (give or take) 70mph or so. Anyone know what the end result would be if one of these final drives was swapped in? Guess there's a formula for this sort of thing.

Archidamus-R · 10-15-2009, 07:27 PM

It's all just arithmetic, I think, but I wouldn't want to do it. :P

Someone on here somewhere mentioned putting a taller fifth gear in their transmission. If you're syncros need work, it'll have to come apart anyway . . .

Sang · 10-15-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RePete

Anyone know what the end result would be if one of these final drives was swapped in? Guess there's a formula for this sort of thing.

Simply too much information to copy and paste: MR2 Owners Club Message Board&#8482

Graph 2 answers your question

mr2_mk1.5 · 10-15-2009, 07:47 PM

I know all of this but I just thought if possible that it would be cool to not only have an 86 mr2 with a heavily modified 3sgte in it but also to have a 6 speed standard, also with the 6 speed the gearing would be different and with some simple calculations you could make it benefecial, for my turbo I need taller gearing then the e153 has and I thought if I can just build upé beef up a 6 speed I would rather do that

Sang · 10-15-2009, 07:49 PM

You are not the first person to think about having a 6 speed, this question is about as common as people asking about a 2jzgte in a mk2.

brianbooth · 10-16-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RePete

Some excellent info, Brian. Thanks for that. The standard 5th gear revs at 3,000 RPM at (give or take) 70mph or so. Anyone know what the end result would be if one of these final drives was swapped in? Guess there's a formula for this sort of thing.

Unless math works differently than I think it does, you'd be running ~2750 rpms with the 3.93:1 and ~2540 with the 3.625:1 ratio. That would also bump your top speed up from 160 to 174 and 189 but don't forget that the speedo only goes up to 160

mr2_mk1.5 · 10-16-2009, 07:20 PM

I'm not asking for the sake of asking, I'm actually asking to do research, I do not know if it is impossible or not, thats what I'm asking, I do not appreciate being thrown into the same crowd as people who fantasize about putting an inline twin turbo 6 cylinder into a car that the drivetrain sits east to west, I'm asking a serious question about an idea I have and if its possible to execute that plan. Also for your talk about the speedo the gen 1's top out at 240km/h (149mph) and it is possible to hit 240km/h fast enough and hard enough to break the speedo head

brianbooth · 10-16-2009, 07:50 PM

Right, I was thinking gen 2. I believe the new lotus car that sports the 2gr-fe would have a 6 speed and since the 2gr-fe bolts to the E153, whatever tranny it has will bolt up as well as long as it's, as you say, an east-west mounted engine which you'd think a Lotus would have. But then you'd have to buy a lotus tranny O_O. Other than that you'd have to find another tranny and make it work with an adapter plate. Maybe the box out of a mk3 would fit? but I hear those a pretty weak.

mr2_mk1.5 · 10-16-2009, 08:31 PM

I appreciate the info and I shall research into it farther, I'm gonna need all the strength I can get because this engine is a monster and would rip an inferiorly built box to shreds

alphaerror · 10-18-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianbooth

Just keep in mind that all your gears will be higher after doing one of these swaps so you're losing a little acceleration to gain top speed and lower highway revs.

For me that's not so much a concern since 4th and 5th gears seem pretty close. Anyone else feel that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianbooth

You can put the final drive from a celica into it.

Sweet! What year? And I imagine model doesn't matter? (Is this the last gen. celica's 5th gear?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianbooth

There's also a 3.625:1 and is harder to find but apparently still possible.

Is this from a celica as well? (would this be the 6th gear from the last gen. celica?)

Thanks for the tips!

alphaerror · 10-18-2009, 10:59 PM

I found (Googled) this for a 2003 T Sport Celica

Transmission

Gear Type 6 Speed Manual
Final Drive 4.53:1
1st Gear Ratio 3.17:1
2nd Gear Ratio 2.05:1
3rd Gear Ratio 1.48:1
4th Gear Ratio 1.17:1
5th Gear Ratio 0.92:1
6th Gear Ratio 0.82:1

For a 2003 celica (regular?)

Transmission

Gear Type 6 Speed Manual
Final Drive 4.31:1
1st Gear Ratio 3.17:1
2nd Gear Ratio 1.9:1
3rd Gear Ratio 1.31:1
4th Gear Ratio 1.03:1
5th Gear Ratio 0.86:1
6th Gear Ratio 0.73:1

Wiki:
6 Speed transaxles

C60
Gear ratios for this transmission.
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Reverse Final
3.166 2.050 1.481 1.166 0.916 0.725 3.250 4.529
Applications:
2000-2005 Toyota Celica
Toyota Corolla
2003-2006 Toyota Matrix XRS
2003-2006 Pontiac Vibe GT
2003-2007 Mr2 Roadster/Spyder
beware, Bell housings marked with the C60 stamp are also used on other gearboxes other than the 6speed, some J-spec 5 speeds also have this marking as well[citation needed]

S54

A 5-Speed Manual Transmission. The shift cable levers on the Toyota MR2's S54 are located on the front of the transmission, whereas they're located on the rear of other S-series transmissions.
Toyota MR2 Ratios:
First Gear: 3.285:1
Second Gear: 1.960:1
Third Gear: 1.322:1
Fourth Gear: 1.028:1
Fifth Gear: 0.820:1
Reverse Gear: 3.153:1
Final Drive: 4.176:1 (EU Versions have a 3.944:1 Final Drive)

Maybe this helps, maybe not...

richey.charles · 10-24-2009, 01:03 AM

this may be a stupid question but if you were to switch in one of the other final drives would this effect your speedo or would it still be correct? i want to have an accurate speedo but the 3.625:1 sounded nice to have. cops are everywhere here.

alphaerror · 10-28-2009, 04:21 PM

this might be of interest too...

Gear Ratio Claculator
Gear Ratio Calculator

Jmoney · 10-28-2009, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianbooth

Right, I was thinking gen 2. I believe the new lotus car that sports the 2gr-fe would have a 6 speed and since the 2gr-fe bolts to the E153, whatever tranny it has will bolt up as well as long as it's, as you say, an east-west mounted engine which you'd think a Lotus would have. But then you'd have to buy a lotus tranny O_O. .

does anyone know if that would actually work?

Sh0ty · 11-04-2009, 12:09 AM

Changing your final drive to make your gears taller will mean slower acceleration through all the gears, and less boat rowing, along with slower acceleration. I'd look into a taller 5th gear instead. While you're in there, you can replace the 2nd synchro.

vr4 · 11-09-2009, 03:54 PM

taller gearing=slower acceleration. kind of double edged there.

bigger turbo will like the taller gearing due to the fact that it allows the car to stay in gear longer, more load on the engine=slightly quicker spool.

case in point. 5 speed 3000gt vs 6 speed 3000gt.

equal mods with stock (7000rpm) redline. the 6 speed car will be slightly quicker up to approx 110 mph. at this point the 6 speed goes into 4th. the 5 speed car pulls ahead and stays ahead until speeds get much to fast to be comfortable on public roads.

5 speed car runs to 120 in 3rd and 160 in 4th. 6 speed car goes 115 and 150 respectively. its only after the 5 speed car goes to 5th that the 6 speed car begins to take advantage of the slightly shorter ratio of its 5th gear.

i only post from experience as ive done this exact comparison (i have both cars. equal mods at the time.)

10-15-2009, 01:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
mr2_mk1.5 Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada Posts: 165 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	6 speed 3sgte???? I was wondering as I'm starting to suffer the 2nd gear synchro problem with the e153 is it possible to adapt a 6 speed standard to a 3sgte because it would be nice to cruise down the highway with a 6th gear to keep the rpms down

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10-15-2009, 01:51 AM	#2 (permalink)
Sang Turtle Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: FL Posts: 4,096 Thanks: 18 Thanked 267 Times in 246 Posts iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	Having a 6 speed doesn't mean that another gear is plopped onto the end to cruise a lower rpms, all the gearing changes. If you want to lower cruising speed rpms then get a different final drive.

10-15-2009, 04:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
brianbooth Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Longview, WA Posts: 195 Thanks: 6 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	You can put the final drive from a celica into it. The stock MR2 Turbo FD is 4.28:1 ratio while the celica one is 3.93:1. There's also a 3.625:1 and is harder to find but apparently still possible. Gouky has done the 3.625 change and could tell you more about it than me but he seemed to think that the 3.93 would be a more reasonable choice than what he went with. Here's the part numbers for what you'd need for the 3.625:1 33321-33010, 9107-9308, Shaft, Output 41221-32060, 9107-9308, Gear, Front Differential Ring 33407-33010, 9107-9308, Gear sub-assy, Manual transmission oil pump drive And for the 3.933 3.933 Shaft, Output 33321-20120 3.933 Gear, Ring 41221-12240 3.933 Gear, Oil Pump 33407-12011 Just keep in mind that all your gears will be higher after doing one of these swaps so you're losing a little acceleration to gain top speed and lower highway revs.

10-15-2009, 06:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
RePete No Frills Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Western Canada Posts: 3,897 Thanks: 0 Thanked 254 Times in 244 Posts Blog Entries: 4 iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Some excellent info, Brian. Thanks for that. The standard 5th gear revs at 3,000 RPM at (give or take) 70mph or so. Anyone know what the end result would be if one of these final drives was swapped in? Guess there's a formula for this sort of thing.

10-15-2009, 07:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
Archidamus-R Make it so. Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: SW-MO Posts: 660 Thanks: 17 Thanked 12 Times in 11 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	It's all just arithmetic, I think, but I wouldn't want to do it. :P Someone on here somewhere mentioned putting a taller fifth gear in their transmission. If you're syncros need work, it'll have to come apart anyway . . .

10-15-2009, 07:47 PM	#8 (permalink)
mr2_mk1.5 Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada Posts: 165 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I know all of this but I just thought if possible that it would be cool to not only have an 86 mr2 with a heavily modified 3sgte in it but also to have a 6 speed standard, also with the 6 speed the gearing would be different and with some simple calculations you could make it benefecial, for my turbo I need taller gearing then the e153 has and I thought if I can just build upé beef up a 6 speed I would rather do that

10-15-2009, 07:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sang Turtle Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: FL Posts: 4,096 Thanks: 18 Thanked 267 Times in 246 Posts iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	You are not the first person to think about having a 6 speed, this question is about as common as people asking about a 2jzgte in a mk2.

10-16-2009, 07:20 PM	#11 (permalink)
mr2_mk1.5 Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada Posts: 165 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I'm not asking for the sake of asking, I'm actually asking to do research, I do not know if it is impossible or not, thats what I'm asking, I do not appreciate being thrown into the same crowd as people who fantasize about putting an inline twin turbo 6 cylinder into a car that the drivetrain sits east to west, I'm asking a serious question about an idea I have and if its possible to execute that plan. Also for your talk about the speedo the gen 1's top out at 240km/h (149mph) and it is possible to hit 240km/h fast enough and hard enough to break the speedo head

10-16-2009, 07:50 PM	#12 (permalink)
brianbooth Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Longview, WA Posts: 195 Thanks: 6 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Right, I was thinking gen 2. I believe the new lotus car that sports the 2gr-fe would have a 6 speed and since the 2gr-fe bolts to the E153, whatever tranny it has will bolt up as well as long as it's, as you say, an east-west mounted engine which you'd think a Lotus would have. But then you'd have to buy a lotus tranny O_O. Other than that you'd have to find another tranny and make it work with an adapter plate. Maybe the box out of a mk3 would fit? but I hear those a pretty weak.

10-16-2009, 08:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
mr2_mk1.5 Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada Posts: 165 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I appreciate the info and I shall research into it farther, I'm gonna need all the strength I can get because this engine is a monster and would rip an inferiorly built box to shreds

10-18-2009, 10:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
alphaerror Some Skills! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Francisco Posts: 268 Thanks: 5 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	I found (Googled) this for a 2003 T Sport Celica Transmission Gear Type 6 Speed Manual Final Drive 4.53:1 1st Gear Ratio 3.17:1 2nd Gear Ratio 2.05:1 3rd Gear Ratio 1.48:1 4th Gear Ratio 1.17:1 5th Gear Ratio 0.92:1 6th Gear Ratio 0.82:1 For a 2003 celica (regular?) Transmission Gear Type 6 Speed Manual Final Drive 4.31:1 1st Gear Ratio 3.17:1 2nd Gear Ratio 1.9:1 3rd Gear Ratio 1.31:1 4th Gear Ratio 1.03:1 5th Gear Ratio 0.86:1 6th Gear Ratio 0.73:1 Wiki: 6 Speed transaxles C60 Gear ratios for this transmission. 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th Reverse Final 3.166 2.050 1.481 1.166 0.916 0.725 3.250 4.529 Applications: 2000-2005 Toyota Celica Toyota Corolla 2003-2006 Toyota Matrix XRS 2003-2006 Pontiac Vibe GT 2003-2007 Mr2 Roadster/Spyder beware, Bell housings marked with the C60 stamp are also used on other gearboxes other than the 6speed, some J-spec 5 speeds also have this marking as well[citation needed] S54 A 5-Speed Manual Transmission. The shift cable levers on the Toyota MR2's S54 are located on the front of the transmission, whereas they're located on the rear of other S-series transmissions. Toyota MR2 Ratios: First Gear: 3.285:1 Second Gear: 1.960:1 Third Gear: 1.322:1 Fourth Gear: 1.028:1 Fifth Gear: 0.820:1 Reverse Gear: 3.153:1 Final Drive: 4.176:1 (EU Versions have a 3.944:1 Final Drive) Maybe this helps, maybe not...

10-24-2009, 01:03 AM	#16 (permalink)
richey.charles No Skills Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 33 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	this may be a stupid question but if you were to switch in one of the other final drives would this effect your speedo or would it still be correct? i want to have an accurate speedo but the 3.625:1 sounded nice to have. cops are everywhere here.

10-28-2009, 04:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
alphaerror Some Skills! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: San Francisco Posts: 268 Thanks: 5 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	this might be of interest too... Gear Ratio Claculator Gear Ratio Calculator

11-04-2009, 12:09 AM	#19 (permalink)
Sh0ty Armchair Racer Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 1,273 Thanks: 22 Thanked 57 Times in 54 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Changing your final drive to make your gears taller will mean slower acceleration through all the gears, and less boat rowing, along with slower acceleration. I'd look into a taller 5th gear instead. While you're in there, you can replace the 2nd synchro.

11-09-2009, 03:54 PM	#20 (permalink)
vr4 No Skills Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 115 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	taller gearing=slower acceleration. kind of double edged there. bigger turbo will like the taller gearing due to the fact that it allows the car to stay in gear longer, more load on the engine=slightly quicker spool. case in point. 5 speed 3000gt vs 6 speed 3000gt. equal mods with stock (7000rpm) redline. the 6 speed car will be slightly quicker up to approx 110 mph. at this point the 6 speed goes into 4th. the 5 speed car pulls ahead and stays ahead until speeds get much to fast to be comfortable on public roads. 5 speed car runs to 120 in 3rd and 160 in 4th. 6 speed car goes 115 and 150 respectively. its only after the 5 speed car goes to 5th that the 6 speed car begins to take advantage of the slightly shorter ratio of its 5th gear. i only post from experience as ive done this exact comparison (i have both cars. equal mods at the time.)