3SGTE: need help to get up to 400 hp PLEASE

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by baktasht

Just get a Gen3, bolt on an EMSPowered turbo kit, intercooler, and exhaust. Set it to 17psi. And make 320-350rwhp all day long and call it a day.

That's around 400-430hp at the motor.

I can vouch for this, i have the exact setup above on my car, BONE stock 3rd gen swap, EMS S252 turbo kit (aka, not even the biggest), Ebay IC, 93oct pump gas and 17psi and here is what my dyno looked like:



Keep in mind that my boost controller was acting up and that is why the tourqe curve looks kinda funny but the power don't lie. This is in ~125 degree Texas heat and 60%+ humidity. Now that it is cooler i fully expect that i would gain another ~10rwhp.

Also the red line is another pull where that pesky boost controller decided to overboost and hit the 18psi fuel cut. Notice how power was taking off?

Video of the dyno pull:

You Tube

Video of the car at the track:

You Tube

More videos on the youtube channel.

I will be adding an AEM, METH and possibly cams in the coming weeks and will see what it can do with some more boost and tuning! Then to try an S256 and a GT30 turbo to compare!

I also have to recomend the EMS 3rd gen swaps, that is a DARN good price E****ally with the free Rear strut bar he is tossing in for the next 2 buyers! I have considered getting another swap to just have around, just in case.

[CJMR2T]

With the above mentioned setup (i.e. the EMS Powered kit with the S252), at what RPM can you get a full 17psi and roughly what RPM will it start to produce boost?

I know that this can vary somewhat in different gears cause of engine load due to gearing so lets say in 3rd or 4th gear..

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by CJMR2T

With the above mentioned setup (i.e. the EMS Powered kit with the S252), at what RPM can you get a full 17psi and roughly what RPM will it start to produce boost?

I know that this can vary somewhat in different gears cause of engine load due to gearing so lets say in 3rd or 4th gear..

Here is a dyno of a 4th gear pull showing spoll to 200ft lb at 3300rpm. Rememebr this is a STOCK 3rd gen, on stock cams and stock ECU.



As for when it hit full boost.

It would start building boost the second the pull started, i am talking way down at 2000rpm and build to 17psi by mid-upper 3000's depending on gear.

While driving the car, anything above 4000rpm and spool in virtually instant, PLENTY fast enough spool for all but the tightest autocross tracks.

I persoanlly LOVE this turbo, while it spools real quick it is not the "snap spooling" that my old 20b had which i found very unenjoyable and also bad for traction. This turbo spools real quick but it is still nice and smooth when the power comes on.

I personally think this is the best all around turbo for the MR2. It can do it all well. It is not the best at anything but it is good at everything. just my kind of turbo.

I actually plan on using the S256 turbo long term since this turbo spools SO fast, i could EASILY stand a little more lag for some more power. and for those wanting a little quicker spool there is the S250 and even an S247. But i don't see a reason for the S247 IMHO.

The S252 is a direct competiter to the GT3071 turbo and so far it is RIGHT in line with it if not better. I actually plan to test out a GT30 series turbo side by side with an S200 series turbo down the road and get a direct comparison.

[hookedup96rolla]

i still think that if you already have a decent 3s 2nd gen motor in your car to just build that. no need to go and blow 3k for a swap when your motor is just as competent.

if all you want is like 320-340whp buy a 30r turbokit, injectors, walbro 255, and a pfc. get it all used on the forum and spend no more than 3500

[tonys mr2]

Originally Posted by devind56

ill put up some pics if u want some.... not gonna put my numbers down but will give u my build sheet to what u need the eaiset way to make tpower and be able to hold it..... and running 1 255 is not smart considering if u check it they start to struggle around 350... made that mistake a few times.... and u can run a side mount.... i make more power then probably everyone on this side mount.....

Please i would like to see some pictures and and it would be awesome if u can give me your build sheet too thanks!!!

[CJMR2T]

Thats funny cause I've pushed over 425rwhp on a single 255 for over 4 years on a supra with no problems and have seen plenty of others do it too..... Pressure is a factor here though but with the right right size injectors running standard pressure a 255lph pump will flow enough to support 500hp (flywheel)...

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

i still think that if you already have a decent 3s 2nd gen motor in your car to just build that. no need to go and blow 3k for a swap when your motor is just as competent.

if all you want is like 320-340whp buy a 30r turbokit, injectors, walbro 255, and a pfc. get it all used on the forum and spend no more than 3500

Yeah, that would work, but you would need cams on top of that to hit those numbers.

And once you do hit those numbers you are pretty much maxed out where as the 3rd gen is just getting started.

Also with a 3rd gen swap, you can sell your old motor for ~$1000, sell the 20b turbo for $500 and a few other little things so the end price on the swap comes out to about $1000 or a little more.

Then you get ~325rwhp to start with basic bolt on's. And like i plan to prove, if you move on to a few more upgrades you can get a lot more power out of the stock motor.

[mr2magic]

Objection your honour!!! Although the GEN3 head flows better than the GEN2 it's not a massive world of difference. I think at that power level both engines require extensive modding and that costs the same whther Gen2 or Gen3.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Originally Posted by mr2magic

Objection your honour!!! Although the GEN3 head flows better than the GEN2 it's not a massive world of difference. I think at that power level both engines require extensive modding and that costs the same whther Gen2 or Gen3.

The major difference is that the Gen3 cams are much better suited for higher HP, and the intake manifold as well. The Gen2 cams become a big restriction around 300whp, and the intake manifold around 330/340whp.

[mr2magic]

Exactly! But we are really talking about nuances here. Convert the Gen2 to shimless or shim under, regrind your cams and get a valve job - voilá! But then your still not a 400 rwhp with the gen2 or gen3!

-bigger turbo
-pistons
-conrods (maybe, maybe not)
-HG
-IC
-Exhaust
-Electronics
.....

All the expensive **** has to be done to both. Do you see what I'm getting at?

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by mr2magic

Exactly! But we are really talking about nuances here. Convert the Gen2 to shimless or shim under, regrind your cams and get a valve job - voilá! But then your still not a 400 rwhp with the gen2 or gen3!

-bigger turbo
-pistons
-conrods (maybe, maybe not)
-HG
-IC
-Exhaust
-Electronics
.....

All the expensive **** has to be done to both. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Nope i don't see what you are getting at.

I plan to hit 400rwhp on my car with a stock 3rd gen, turbo kit, AEM and meth injection. Possibly cams if i have enough money.

Plus those "little things" you say you can do to a 2nd gen to make it as good, they would cost as much as upgrading to a 3rd gen after you take into account selling the stuff you don't need.

Now will a 2nd gen make as much power as a 3rd gen with enough mods? sure. but you have to do the math and figure out if it is worth it.

To me spending a few hundred extra moving to a 3rd gen is WELL worth it vs modding the 2nd gen to make the same power. but that is just me.

[mr2magic]

Sorry I'm obvoiusly not able to present the information in a way an obvious expert like yourself understands.

I suggest you take a look at the price of a Gen3 swap and figure that into the equation and still tell me it's cheaper than getting the Gen2 to the same power level...

But what do I give a ****. Do what you feel good with! I'm guessing your gonna put scoops on too???

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by mr2magic

Sorry I'm obvoiusly not able to present the information in a way an obvious expert like yourself understands.

I suggest you take a look at the price of a Gen3 swap and figure that into the equation and still tell me it's cheaper than getting the Gen2 to the same power level...

But what do I give a ****. Do what you feel good with! I'm guessing your gonna put scoops on too???

I am looking at the price of a 3rd gen swap.

3rd gen swap from EMSpowered: $2500 shipped to your door with free Rear strut brace.

Sell running 2nd gen motor for $1000 - $1500 (i sold my blown 2nd gen for $1000 BTW just a few months ago)

= $1000 - $1500 for swap.

Sell 20b turbo for $500 (i sold mine for $600 but to keeps things simple)

= $500 - $1000 for swap

Sell mics other stuff you won't need for another $100 - $250 (i made $200 off mics other stuff left over from the swap)

= $400 - $900 for swap.

And if you don't want the rear strut brace, then sell it for $225

= $175 - $675

So the end price for the swap is a whole $200 - $700, that gives you the better 3rd gen LSD tranny, BIG upgrade for those with a 91 tranny and HUGE upgrade for those with no LSD. The tranny alone is worth $1000 - $1500.

Then you get all the benifits of a 3rd gen motor on top of that.

You know what, i think that a 3rd gen swap makes a lot of sense.

It will cost you at LEAST $750 - $1500 to get a 2nd gen to 3rd gen levels.

540cc Injectors: $250

3rd gen cams : $200

at least a TB inlet to help make up for the much worse intake: $75

Rom tune or PFC: $500 - $1000

That still leaves the weaker top end, if you were to switch to shims under bucket it would cost you even more. And on top of all this you still don't have the 3rd gen LSD tranny, MUCH better stock ECU (remember i hit 325rwhp on the stock 3rd gen ECU), better intake and other advantages of the 3rd gen.

So that is how i come to my conclusion and why i did my swap and how i know that the listed prices are right, i did it personally just a few months ago.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Texas_Ace

It will cost you at LEAST $750 - $1500 to get a 2nd gen to 3rd gen levels.

540cc Injectors: $250

3rd gen cams : $200

at least a TB inlet to help make up for the much worse intake: $75

Rom tune or PFC: $500 - $1000

Let's be real here...these quotes are way off base and overly expensive compared to normal market prices.

You're looking AT MOST, $150 for gen3 injectors, $125 for gen3 cams, $55 for TBI, and $750 for a romtune OR a piddly $350-400 for a gen3 EFI setup. And GTFO with all this shim under bucket BS, shim over's on a gen2 is quite alright especially with using gen3 cams which are only a meager step up from gen2 cams BTW. We're talking a measly .5mm more lift (and slightly more duration as a consequence due to a slightly longer lobe slope). Hell, i'm going with twin gen3 intake cams and i put the setup together for less than $100...

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by Sang

Let's be real here...these quotes are way off base and overly expensive compared to normal market prices.

You're looking AT MOST, $150 for gen3 injectors, $125 for gen3 cams, $55 for TBI, and $750 for a romtune OR a piddly $350-400 for a gen3 EFI setup.

Possible, i have not looked up prices on those items in a long time.

Was not aware you could use a 3rd gen ECU with a 2nd gen for that cheap.

Either way that is still $700 - $1100, so my estmates are off a little (a whole $50, ouch). Comes out to virtually the exact same price as a swap either way except you get all the other benifits of a 3rd gen.

That was my whole point from the start.

[lucky_charms]

so the inevitable gen2 vs gen3 fight...keep it commin its kinda interestin

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by lucky_charms

so the inevitable gen2 vs gen3 fight...keep it commin its kinda interestin

LOL, so it seems.

From my point of view, upgrading a 2nd gen to 3rd gen specs is about the same cost as a 3rd gen swap give or take a few hundred bucks.

So really the biggest thing you gain after all that is the 3rd gen LSD tranny. this is a MUCH better tranny over a 91 non-lsd tranny and better then a 91 lsd tranny. If you have a 93+ car with LSD then this is not near as big of a deal as it is the same tranny.

Then you have milage, 9 out of 10 times a 3rd gen swap will have less miles on it then your 2nd gen in the car. So you are also getting a fresher motor/tranny out of the deal.

You also have the other 3rd gen upgrades like intake, shim under bucket, better head and such as a bouns.

It is not 100% always better to get a 3rd gen by any means. But as a rule, i would prefer a 3rd gen swap over upgrading a 2nd gen for up to about 400rwhp for the above stated reasons. Others have differnt ideas, they are more then entitled to those ideas. This is just what i think.

[lucky_charms]

yeah nd ur setup is like my guide book for when i get my gen3 so keep tha info commin

[CJMR2T]

While we are on this subject of which engine is better and why, I'd like to hear everyone's theory as to why the Gen 3 and 4 heads have a larger exhaust port for cylinder 1 then 2,3 and 4?

If it was an individual runner manifold and they did it to cylinder 4, I could understand and have a logincal theory for it but its not, so why cylinder 1?

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Texas_Ace

Either way that is still $700 - $1100, so my estmates are off a little (a whole $50, ouch)

Your inability to understand basic math topics like "ranges" means it's time for me to leave this thread. But i'll leave it at this:

You quote: $750-$1500.

I'm quoting $700 MAX if you pay market prices for a gen3 efi, less if you actually find better deals out there. If you're going to compare rom tunes, then add in $500 to the price of a gen3 swap to compare apples to apples. Otherwise a stock gen3 ecu is enough to keep it apples to apples to a gen3 swap.