3SGTE: need help to get up to 400 hp PLEASE

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by lucky_charms

yeah nd ur setup is like my guide book for when i get my gen3 so keep tha info commin

LOL, well i am happy with the car, i am sure others would be as well.

I plan to move on to "stage 2" as soon as i get my new tranny in. AEM, Meth and possible Cams. Then see what it will do with that. I hope to break into the 400rwhp club but we will see.

Originally Posted by CJMR2T

While we are on this subject of which engine is better and why, I'd like to hear everyone's theory as to why the Gen 3 and 4 heads have a larger exhaust port for cylinder 1 then 2,3 and 4?

If it was an individual runner manifold and they did it to cylinder 4, I could understand and have a logincal theory for it but its not, so why cylinder 1?

Well sorry this is way out of my leage. Was not even aware of this till you said somthing. Somone else might know though.

[lucky_charms]

i wana break the 400 club to but its goin in a mk1 so were gona see how that goes should be interestin

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by Sang

Your inability to understand basic math topics like "ranges" means it's time for me to leave this thread. But i'll leave it at this:

You quote: $750-$1500.

I'm quoting $700 MAX if you pay market prices for a gen3 efi, less if you actually find better deals out there. If you're going to compare rom tunes, then add in $500 to the price of a gen3 swap to compare apples to apples. Otherwise a stock gen3 ecu is enough to keep it apples to apples to a gen3 swap.

And i say that i was not aware that prices had dropped that much or that you could use 3rd gen eletronics for anywhere near that price. So a rom tune was the cheapest option to make it apples to apples making my quote prefectly acceptable.

Now that i know cheaper options are there i adjusted the quote to include the options, being a rom tune or a 3rd gen ECU swap. The rom tune being a slightly better option but costing more. Which is why i included it in my price range.

I don't see how that is off or wrong at all. My quote still started at a whole $50 more then yours and you yourself said that a rom tune is an option making our quotes the same.

All of my quotes were options, the price range includes those options. It is perfectly accetpable to include options in the price ranges.

But thing is, even with your own quote of $700, what does that do? still shows it would cost the same to do a 3rd gen swap vs modding a 2nd gen. So whats the point of arguing over somthing that doesn't effect or change my point at all?

[hookedup96rolla]

if the car already has a gen2 thats in good condition no need to swap. You're speaking of how the motor is so much better. yet for more power you are still buying new cams for the motor, going to need bigger injectors, and tuning among other things.
Ok if you only want 320whp then whatever, either motor will do it with some cheap 550s, a turbokit(which you need to buy for either one and gen2s are more common and easier to find second hand) and I'd want some kind of tuning for either motor.

thennnnn if you want 400whp you're deff gonna swap out them cams, prolly the intake manifold, need a bigger fuel system, and some type of ems. and look at that, there just went almsot all of the benefits a gen3 had. going ems on the gen2 you can spend another $50 and change the car to MAP.

sooooo now after doing all the upgrades the only stock parts still on the motor are the bottom end, hg, and head minus cams. then if you want to get into this, we can start discussing how gen3s have been more prone to cracking(worse than gen2) due to casting flaws. shims in the head are no big deal at all. people are making tons of power while still keeping a gen2 head using stock shim setup.

trans....I'll give that to you, but LSD trans are coming down in price a ton now and you're gonna need to pull the car apart anyhow to throw a new clutch in. so either pick up a lsd trans for 700ish or go even better (since the stock diff isn't the best for high power) and buy a lsd for the same amount if your synchros are decent. Oooorrrrrrr (my preferred option) while doing the clutch pull the trans apart and just weld the diff up. now you've got a full locker rear in the car and is perfect esp if you wanna dragrace it.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

^^ The Gen3 cams are actually fine for 400whp, so is the intake manifold.

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

if the car already has a gen2 thats in good condition no need to swap. You're speaking of how the motor is so much better. yet for more power you are still buying new cams for the motor, going to need bigger injectors, and tuning among other things.
Ok if you only want 320whp then whatever, either motor will do it with some cheap 550s, a turbokit(which you need to buy for either one and gen2s are more common and easier to find second hand) and I'd want some kind of tuning for either motor.

thennnnn if you want 400whp you're deff gonna swap out them cams, prolly the intake manifold, need a bigger fuel system, and some type of ems. and look at that, there just went almsot all of the benefits a gen3 had. going ems on the gen2 you can spend another $50 and change the car to MAP.

sooooo now after doing all the upgrades the only stock parts still on the motor are the bottom end, hg, and head minus cams. then if you want to get into this, we can start discussing how gen3s have been more prone to cracking(worse than gen2) due to casting flaws. shims in the head are no big deal at all. people are making tons of power while still keeping a gen2 head using stock shim setup.

trans....I'll give that to you, but LSD trans are coming down in price a ton now and you're gonna need to pull the car apart anyhow to throw a new clutch in. so either pick up a lsd trans for 700ish or go even better (since the stock diff isn't the best for high power) and buy a lsd for the same amount if your synchros are decent. Oooorrrrrrr (my preferred option) while doing the clutch pull the trans apart and just weld the diff up. now you've got a full locker rear in the car and is perfect esp if you wanna dragrace it.

Well except you are missing my point, that $700 (i would LOVE to know where you can get an LSD trans for $700 BTW, i just spent $900 and THAT was a heck of a deal, cheapest i could find next to that was $1100) you spend on the tranny to upgrade a 2nd gen is the cost of a swap.

Thus my 1 and only point still stands, it costs about the same, give or take a few hundred bucks, to upgrade a 2nd gen to 3rd gen specs. And i for one would rather have a 3rd gen for that money then an upgraded 2nd gen.

Also the 3rd gen comes with 550's no need to upgrade those. The intake has been used to over 700RWHP, bone stock and the cams are good to upper 300's or even low 400's. With an S256 i could hit 400rwhp on stock cams and i might do that just to prove it can be done.

But my point is not what happens after the swap, it is that getting the 2nd gen to 3rd gen specs costs the same as a 3rd gen swap and i would personally much rather the swap.

9 out of 10 times it is a fresher motor and tranny then the one in the car. You get a 3rd gen LSD tranny. Better intake. Better head. Better cams stock. Oil filter is now on the bottom of the engine. Better oil pan. and i am sure there is nore i am not thinking of.

[hookedup96rolla]

there is NO way that 550s are going to be good for 400whp. they poop out around 350ish max. if you're going for 400 then i bet you're putting in aftermarket cams. you even said yourself that you want to swap yours out if you have the $.

as for the trans, theres a lsd trans on ebay right now for 625 obo. again you can buy a MUCH better lsd than stock if your trans is fine or weld the diff.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

there is NO way that 550s are going to be good for 400whp. they poop out around 350ish max. if you're going for 400 then i bet you're putting in aftermarket cams. you even said yourself that you want to swap yours out if you have the $.

as for the trans, theres a lsd trans on ebay right now for 625 obo. again you can buy a MUCH better lsd than stock if your trans is fine or weld the diff.

I dont think anyone in this entire thread has said that the 540cc gen3 injectors are good for 400whp.

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

there is NO way that 550s are going to be good for 400whp. they poop out around 350ish max. if you're going for 400 then i bet you're putting in aftermarket cams. you even said yourself that you want to swap yours out if you have the $.

as for the trans, theres a lsd trans on ebay right now for 625 obo. again you can buy a MUCH better lsd than stock if your trans is fine or weld the diff.

540's are actually good to 375rwhp as ATS has shown but yeah you will need more for 400hp, i plan to use meth so i will be fine for my goals.

And i plan to use cams for the power band not for the max power and because i can, not because i have to.

But once again that is not my point, my 1 and only point this whole time has been that is costs the same to mod a 2nd gen to 3rd gen specs as it does to swap a 3rd gen.

That is my ONLY point, nothing any of you have said changes or even argues that, so why do ya'll keep trying to argue somthing that doesn't matter and i don't even cared about?

[hookedup96rolla]

the 3rd gen makes for alot more work if you are going to be upgrading most stuff on it anyhow. the 2nd gen is already in the engine bay and wired up so theres no need to be swapping complete motors. so again i don't see the point of spending the $ on a 3rd gen over the 2nd gen if you are just going to upgrade nearly all the stuff on it anyhow.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

the 3rd gen makes for alot more work if you are going to be upgrading most stuff on it anyhow. the 2nd gen is already in the engine bay and wired up so theres no need to be swapping complete motors. so again i don't see the point of spending the $ on a 3rd gen over the 2nd gen if you are just going to upgrade nearly all the stuff on it anyhow.

I think you're missing the point... the 2nd gen is fine and so is the 3rd gen, if you're shooting for huge power (think 450whp or more) and have to end up replacing cams, intake manifold, etc.. etc.... in that case they would both be fine nad if you've already got a 2nd gen, keep it and build it.

In the case of someone who wnats to make 300whp-400whp, the 3rd gen is a no brainer. All you need for up to around 350whp is an effecient turbo that can flow enough. And all you need to get up to around 375-450whp is a turbo, ecu & injectors. The gen2 would need a LOT more than that to exceed anything past 325ish whp.

Both are great motors. Depending on your power goals, one may be a better choice than the other.

[hookedup96rolla]

i just don't understand the point of replacing a perfectly good running motor.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

i just don't understand the point of replacing a perfectly good running motor.

Ugh... we're on different wavelenghts. Too hard to communicate over these forums sometimes.

If the motor is fine, and you're happy with where you're at performance-wise, leave it alone. I agree. No point to fix something if it ain't broke. But for certain power goals, it makes sense to swap in something else instead of throwing money at what you have.

I think we all need to meet up at a restaurant for happy hour and talk cars over some drinks and food

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

i just don't understand the point of replacing a perfectly good running motor.

Well because 9 out of 10 times the 3rd gen is a lower mile motor in better condition then what we have in our cars, not to mention the tranny is MUCH better.

Plus you get the other advantages of a 3rd gen, including the tranny for FREE when doing a swap vs keeping what you got.

Plus, yall keep brining up points i am not arguing. for the last time, my ONE and ONLY point is that it costs the same to mod a 2nd gen to 3rd gen specs as swapping a 3rd gen and you get all the other 3rd gen advantages for free when doing a swap.

I personally, as in me, Texas_Ace's personal opinion is that i would MUCH rather get a fresh 3rd gen motor and tranny and just bolt it in vs using the 140k mile engine and tranny that was in my car and gain all the other 3rd gen advantages for free out of the deal.

That is my only point. I never said that was the only way or even the best way, i said that is what I would do and I think it is the best option.

[hookedup96rolla]

haha i guess. my 2nd gen has never let me down and with just a bolt-in 20G kit made 325whp and now is taking a much bigger beating and taking it like a champ. everyones cars and choices vary i guess.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Originally Posted by hookedup96rolla

haha i guess. my 2nd gen has never let me down and with just a bolt-in 20G kit made 325whp and now is taking a much bigger beating and taking it like a champ. everyones cars and choices vary i guess.

I'm assuming you're running at least an aftermarket ecu or a ROMtune with that to achieve 325whp? Maybe cams?

I gotta play devils advocate A gen3 can make that power on the stock ct20b and a fuel cut defencer Or with just a turbo upgrade and no fuel cut defencer

[Michael]

The trouble is with swapping to a rev3 engine is that you dont know what condition the trans/engine is in? Even if its only a 20k engine etc they could of been 20k abused miles? Same for any engine swap i guess!

Texas, like you say your gen3 e153 has just crapped out, which has just cost you another $900 plus fitting (if you cant do it yourself).

My opinion is if your engine is running sweet, and you know some of the history i definately wouldnt be swapping out to a rev3 just for the "benefits".

When going for bigger power aswell, give me a block thats seen 200k miles against a 30k mile block anyday

[Texas_Ace]

Originally Posted by Michael

The trouble is with swapping to a rev3 engine is that you dont know what condition the trans/engine is in? Even if its only a 20k engine etc they could of been 20k abused miles? Same for any engine swap i guess!

Texas, like you say your gen3 e153 has just crapped out, which has just cost you another $900 plus fitting (if you cant do it yourself).

My opinion is if your engine is running sweet, and you know some of the history i definately wouldnt be swapping out to a rev3 just for the "benefits".

When going for bigger power aswell, give me a block thats seen 200k miles against a 30k mile block anyday

Well on the other side of that coin, how many MR2 owners know the condition of the motor/tranny that is in our cars? Maybe 1%?

The rest have motors just as mysterious as a 3rd gen swap. only with a lot more miles.

As for my tranny popping, it was odd the say the least but I also abuse the heck out of my tranny by tracking my car regularly. So I am not real surprised about it. Plus if I had a garage to work in I could have fixed the tranny for under $100 (long story). It only broke the 5th/R shift fork.

And I have said, it is just what I would do, you are more then welcome to use a 2nd gen. I have made it very clear this is not the only way or even the best way. It Is just the way I would do it.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Texas_Ace

Well on the other side of that coin, how many MR2 owners know the condition of the motor/tranny that is in our cars? Maybe 1%?

The rest have motors just as mysterious as a 3rd gen swap. only with a lot more miles.

As for my tranny popping, it was odd the say the least but I also abuse the heck out of my tranny by tracking my car regularly. So I am not real surprised about it. Plus if I had a garage to work in I could have fixed the tranny for under $100 (long story). It only broke the 5th/R shift fork.

And I have said, it is just what I would do, you are more then welcome to use a 2nd gen. I have made it very clear this is not the only way or even the best way. It Is just the way I would do it.

Yeah i guess my point was that if you've had the car/engine/tranny for a while, you know how good it is, instead of swapping out to a unknown engine etc. My car was oringinally a 1989 rev1, although the only thing still oringinal is the block and head castings (although theyve been bored/shaved). Ive stuck with it for high horsepower.

I feel your pain with the trannys, i seem to keep destroying them! they only seem to last two outings!