3SGTE upgrade to 400 HP

[eng_zahir]

Dear Experts
we are going to upgrade an 4th Gen 3SGTE from ST215.
we want to achieve to 400~430 HP at flywheel .

hear is the list we made to buy. please if anything is wrong , or any suggestion coming up, let us know about. we will be so glad to use your experience.


1- 255 walbro in tank fuel pump.
2- 850 CC/Min SARD injectors.
3- ARP head studs.
4- HKS Head gasket.
5- Eagle H-Beam Connecting Rods.
6- stock bearing.
7- forged Piston kit form HKS , JE and CR=8.5~9.0:1
8- Valve Spring from HKS
9- HKS In/Ex cams (272,272)(10.4mm,10.2mm)
9* KelFord In/Ex cams (272,272) (10.8mm,10.8mm)
10- TODA Cam gear
11- After market INTERCOOLER (already have it)
12- EMS the brand is DTA-Fast (already have it)


questions are

1- could the CT20b (stock turbo) make this amount of power???

2- how far could i go with these internal parts ( maximum HP that could be achieve )??


any suggestion is welcome.
you can email me via: eng_zahir@yahoo.com

[Bak@EMSPowered]

You really don't need a lot of those parts to reach 400hp at the flywheel on a Gen3/Gen4. With an upgraded intercooler, exhaust and an effecient turbo kit you will make 400-430hp at the flywheel easily. We made ~415hp at the flywheel at 17psi with great spool, great torque and great top end power as well on our new bolt-on S252 turbo kit on a totally stock Gen3 motor with only the turbo kit, a cheap sidemount intercooler upgrade and an exhaust. And the Gen4 will make that power just as easily with probably slightly better spool due to the higher compression. Here is the dyno of HP at the wheels:



Kit details here: MR2 Bolt-on Turbo Kit (300-650hp)

Sale here: http://www.mr2.com/forums/ems-powere...turbo-kit.html

[CJMR2T]

You really don't need a lot of those parts to reach 400hp at the flywheel on a Gen3/Gen4. With an upgraded intercooler, exhaust and an effecient turbo kit you will make 400-430hp at the flywheel easily. We made ~415hp at the flywheel at 17psi with great spool, great torque and great top end power as well on our new bolt-on S252 turbo kit on a totally stock Gen3 motor with only the turbo kit, a cheap sidemount intercooler upgrade and an exhaust. And the Gen4 will make that power just as easily with probably slightly better spool due to the higher compression.

Although the S252 kit seems to be a really good match for the 3s... 415 flywheel is HP is probably noticable off based on 328 whp.. That would be a 21% lose which is totally unpractical. If the engine that produced 328whp were pulled and ran in a dyno cell (engine dyno), my money is that it would be in the 375 range.

The typical industry quoting drivetrain loses of 15 and 20% is totally false. Its a sales gimick... Science and physics show that you would boil the fluid in the drivetrain components in a matter of minutes if the loses were that high (even with coolers).

Here, Here and Here are some good reads on the subject....

[CJMR2T]

Just pulled out the calculator and crunched the numbers..

Assuming a VE of 90% at 6800rpm (which is roughly the RPM the posted dyno sheet shows peak power of 328) a well tuned 11.0:1 afr and a typical BCSF of .48, a charge temp of 100*F (good rough estimate) and intake pressure at 17psi and it works out to exactly 375hp. Which a 12.5% lose would be 328 @ the wheels...

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Just pulled out the calculator and crunched the numbers..

Assuming a VE of 90% at 6800rpm (which is roughly the RPM the posted dyno sheet shows peak power of 328) a well tuned 11.0:1 afr and a typical BCSF of .48, a charge temp of 100*F (good rough estimate) and intake pressure at 17psi and it works out to exactly 375hp. Which a 12.5% lose would be 328 @ the wheels...

Most tuners assume around 15%-20% drivetrain loss on the MR2's. If you're saying every reputable tuner out there is wrong, ok... that's your opinion. But honestly, you have absolutely no way of knowing that unless you strap the same motor/tune/fuel system to an engine dyno, and then onto the car back to back and measure the difference.

Let's not make this guys thread about such a "bench racing" type topic and let him get the help and advice that he needs instead for his setup.

[CJMR2T]

99% of all tuners out there have never pulled a engine and tested it on an engine dyno. Im not a tuner (as in I have my own shop), but I have tuned well over 150 different engine ontop of the fact that I have attended EFI University... I personally have dyno'ed more then 40 engine on engine dyno's and the same engines in the car it was built for on various chassis dyno's... One of those engines happened to be a mildly built 3SGTE which was broke in and tuned in a cell and peaked out at 464 flywheel HP @ 24psi intake at 7100RPM. That same engine was installed in the car the next day and ran on a chassis dyno that evening and pulled 411 at the wheel's.. Thats almost dead on 11.5% lose... If it were true that the lose was 15 to 20%, then the car should have been in the range of 370 to 390 at the wheels.. This by the way was on a 100% stock 94 E153 trans in 4th gear.

It is not a matter of my oppinion or bench racing, its a matter of proven fact in over 40 personal cases (not to mention the countless other people who have done the same thing) and the MR2 is nothing special compaired to anything else to make it a special case...

You are basing you quoted information off of what other people assume, not proven fact.

[Bak@EMSPowered]

99% of all tuners out there have never pulled a engine and tested it on an engine dyno. Im not a tuner (as in I have my own shop), but I have tuned well over 150 different engine ontop of the fact that I have attended EFI University... I personally have dyno'ed more then 40 engine on engine dyno's and the same engines in the car it was built for on various chassis dyno's... One of those engines happened to be a mildly built 3SGTE which was broke in and tuned in a cell and peaked out at 464 flywheel HP @ 24psi intake at 7100RPM. That same engine was installed in the car the next day and ran on a chassis dyno that evening and pulled 411 at the wheel's.. Thats almost dead on 11.5% lose... If it were true that the lose was 15 to 20%, then the car should have been in the range of 370 to 390 at the wheels.. This by the way was on a 100% stock 94 E153 trans in 4th gear.

It is not a matter of my oppinion or bench racing, its a matter of proven fact in over 40 personal cases (not to mention the countless other people who have done the same thing) and the MR2 is nothing special compaired to anything else to make it a special case...

You are basing you quoted information off of what other people assume, not proven fact.

What shop do you own? Please post the link to it and some links to these 150+ engines that you have tuned.

Totally stock MR2 Gen2 3SGTE's are said to have 225hp at the fly from the factory. They typically dyno at around 160-183whp. You can do the calculation.

Stop babbling and turning this dudes thread into a mess, and let the dude get some input on his build.

[CJMR2T]

First off, all north america MR2's are only rated at 200hp from the factory (go look at the TIS), not 225 and thats also on a lab engine under controlled conditions. Also if you do a bit of research, you will see that Toyota is known for over rating their engines on top of that.

Most cases, the engine is not going to make what it did in the factory because of several reason. 1st and formost is that ever engine is different and it is easy to have 10hp variance from engine to engine. Next thing is there will be a noticeable differance be a car here in Florida at nearly sea level vs. that same car with the same setup in say Denver Co at a mile above sea level.... Next thing is, it is very easy for a dyno operator to cause an error in the readings.... This is especially true if they are using SAE correction (which by the way can not be used on FI aplications for a reason!!!) another thing is if its a break type (Eddy current or water brake, etc...) and the vehicle weight is entered in the wrong, the HP will change and well all know that that there is no way the HP changed... Inertia dyno's dont have this problem being that the only critical weight the system has to know is the Roller. Vehicle weight is of no importance on a inertia dyno.

further more if you read and comprehend what I said, it was " Im NOT a tuner (as in I have my own shop) but I have tuned more then 150...."

I'll tell you what, I'll put any amount of money (you name it) that I could come out to TX and we can chassis dyno Texas Ace's car (whose dyno sheet that is that you posted) then pull his engine and bolt it to a chassis dyno and I will guarantee you that it wont make 415hp.. It will be somewhere close to 375 as long as test conditions are pretty close to what they were on the Chassis dyno and the chassis dyno operator knows what he is doing....

As a matter of fact, we can prove it without even doing all the dyno pulls, a simple trip to a track and a accurate weight reading at the time of the 1/4mile pulls along with some simple math will tell us how much power the engine is making. This is a time and time again proven method of calculating accuate engine hp its all physics and you can break the laws of physics. Again this has be try and test against acurate engine cell readings...

[Bak@EMSPowered]

First off, all north america MR2's are only rated at 200hp from the factory (go look at the TIS), not 225 and thats also on a lab engine under controlled conditions. Also if you do a bit of research, you will see that Toyota is known for over rating their engines on top of that.

Most cases, the engine is not going to make what it did in the factory because of several reason. 1st and formost is that ever engine is different and it is easy to have 10hp variance from engine to engine. Next thing is there will be a noticeable differance be a car here in Florida at nearly sea level vs. that same car with the same setup in say Denver Co at a mile above sea level.... Next thing is, it is very easy for a dyno operator to cause an error in the readings.... This is especially true if they are using SAE correction (which by the way can not be used on FI aplications for a reason!!!) another thing is if its a break type (Eddy current or water brake, etc...) and the vehicle weight is entered in the wrong, the HP will change and well all know that that there is no way the HP changed... Inertia dyno's dont have this problem being that the only critical weight the system has to know is the Roller. Vehicle weight is of no importance on a inertia dyno.

further more if you read and comprehend what I said, it was " Im NOT a tuner (as in I have my own shop) but I have tuned more then 150...."

I'll tell you what, I'll put any amount of money (you name it) that I could come out to TX and we can chassis dyno Texas Ace's car (whose dyno sheet that is that you posted) then pull his engine and bolt it to a chassis dyno and I will guarantee you that it wont make 415hp.. It will be somewhere close to 375 as long as test conditions are pretty close to what they were on the Chassis dyno and the chassis dyno operator knows what he is doing....

As a matter of fact, we can prove it without even doing all the dyno pulls, a simple trip to a track and a accurate weight reading at the time of the 1/4mile pulls along with some simple math will tell us how much power the engine is making. This is a time and time again proven method of calculating accuate engine hp its all physics and you can break the laws of physics. Again this has be try and test against acurate engine cell readings...

You're still going on and on about a topic that has nothing to do with this thread. New thread created so that you have a place to discuss drive train loss and all your theories and tell us all about the 150+ cars that you have tuned. Eagerly awaiting your reply in the other thread so that this thread can be left on topic. http://www.mr2.com/forums/turbo-3s-g...rain-loss.html

Moderators, if it's not too much trouble to move the posts over to the other thread or just delete them from this thread if that's not possible to let this guy get the advice he needs. Thanks.

[Sang]

Dear Experts
we are going to upgrade an 4th Gen 3SGTE from ST215.
we want to achieve to 400~430 HP at flywheel .

hear is the list we made to buy. please if anything is wrong , or any suggestion coming up, let us know about. we will be so glad to use your experience.


1- 255 walbro in tank fuel pump.
2- 850 CC/Min SARD injectors.
3- ARP head studs.
4- HKS Head gasket.
5- Eagle H-Beam Connecting Rods.
6- stock bearing.
7- forged Piston kit form HKS , JE and CR=8.5~9.0:1
8- Valve Spring from HKS
9- HKS In/Ex cams (272,272)(10.4mm,10.2mm)
9* KelFord In/Ex cams (272,272) (10.8mm,10.8mm)
10- TODA Cam gear
11- After market INTERCOOLER (already have it)
12- EMS the brand is DTA-Fast (already have it)

You do not need any of the bolded parts. You really don't need bigger injectors, more-so just run higher base pressure but the st215 engine can upgrade to 750cc/min injectors VERY easily and cheapky. The st215 uses pencil style injectors, same as the Subaru crowd. You can get WRX injectors for cheap and cut the nozzle cover off which restricts flow. This allows the 420cc injectors to start flowing 750cc/min and you can find these for cheap.

1- could the CT20b (stock turbo) make this amount of power???

The stock turbo is actually a ct15b, and can make 350whp. If you decide to upgrade, using an OEM gen3 manifold and using a gen3 turbo kit is your cheapest route. But you don't need a new setup to hit your goal.

2- how far could i go with these internal parts ( maximum HP that could be achieve )??

The pistons are higher compression than the previous generations. Ranging anywhere from 8.5:1 to 8.8:1 while the st215 is 9.0:1 (maybe a little higher actually). Tuning it take more precaution and very good fuel at higher boost. But changing out pistons just for you goal is silly and money could be put to better use.

[328FTW]

You do not need any of the bolded parts. You really don't need bigger injectors, more-so just run higher base pressure but the st215 engine can upgrade to 750cc/min injectors VERY easily and cheapky. The st215 uses pencil style injectors, same as the Subaru crowd. You can get WRX injectors for cheap and cut the nozzle cover off which restricts flow. This allows the 420cc injectors to start flowing 750cc/min and you can find these for cheap.

Not to interject but I love little bits of knowledge like this. I'm going to have to remember that for if I'm ever messing around with a 3sgte that uses that style injector.

[o6spdracer]

^Agreed. Op, while you are at it, you might want to change the Fuel pressure regulator as well. Are you planning to go stand alone? If you are looking for a new turbo, several vendors here on this forum are great resources. The classifieds are a good place to look as well. I have a brand new Authentic Greddy TD06 for sale and there several other turbos that will do the job as well and better. Good luck and I look forward to the progress pics and build thread!

[Bak@EMSPowered]

Good stuff Sang. Now that's some real advice on the topic at hand

[2fast4u]

The stock turbo is actually a ct15b, and can make 350whp. If you decide to upgrade, using an OEM gen3 manifold and using a gen3 turbo kit is your cheapest route. But you don't need a new setup to hit your goal.

Sorry to revive an old thread, but this puzzles me. Everywhere else I've read people say the ct20b outperforms the ct15b in top end power due to its larger exhaust housing? So how could the ct15b potentially be good up to 350whp with a smaller exhaust housing when the ct20b's limits are somewhere between 300-310whp? Are the compressor and turbine wheels on the ct15b really that efficient or is this 350whp false information? Usually sang is very reliable with his info but something seems off.

[John B]

My guess is that it may have to do with the higher compression of the gen 4

[2fast4u]

Does .5 higher compression ratio compared to gen3 really make that much difference? I guess the intake cam and better sidefeed manifold could make up for the rest of the power on the gen4.

[HoneycuttRacing7510]

With the stock turbo ............No I suggest Crw turbo kit and,yes you can with those internals but not all day all the time for 250,000 miles but alll in all 400hp at the wheels yes its possible with race fuel and a great tune