My testresults 3S-GE vs. 3VZ-FE and videos

hot-chili · 11-24-2007, 03:37 AM

To make a complete overview about the new 3VZ-FE I make many tests. Some only for me some for our technical car tests to get a law paper to be allowed to drive on german streets.

!!!Please, this test results are only correct for my car with my setup, my wheels and my drive style!!!
It is only to show the direct difference between the engines at same car!

Bevor I have a 3S-GE Engine with original 175hp from 1994. I tune him to 179hp at 7467upm and 177Nm at 6913Nm here is the dyno video:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/3S-GE%2...ngsmessung.wmv

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I drive many test to find out how big is the differnce between the both engines. (now all in miles!!)
3S-GE:

3VZ-FE:

Speed / Gear / 3S-GE / 3VZ-FE / change %

13-38miles/h 2 5,1s 3,2s + 59%

19-38miles/h 3 6s 3,5s + 71%

19-63miles/h 3 12s 7,7s + 56%

25-44miles/h 4 7,3s 4,8s + 52%

25-44miles/h 5 11,9s 5,9s + 102%

38-63miles/h 3 7,2s 4,6s + 57%

38-63miles/h 4 10,3s 6,4s + 61%

38-63miles/h 5 14,6s 9,7s + 51%

50-75miles/h 3 7,1s 4,9s + 45%

50-75miles/h 4 9,9s 6,5s + 52%

50-75miles/h 5 14,2s 8,4s + 69%

0-63miles/h 1-2 9,9s 7,4s + 34%

My MR2 is now in elasticity between 45 to 102% faster then my old with 3S-GE engine.
My speed up will be 34% better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I must make more test, I drive to a big car weighbridge to get a law paper. Both engine use the S54 gearbox.

Bevor I test with my 3S-GE:
Front axle: 525kg = 1166lbs = 42,34%
Rear axle: 715kg = 1588lbs = 57,66%

Testresult with 3VZ-FE engine:
Front axle: 530kg = 1177lbs = 41,73%
Rear axle: 740kg = 1644lbs = 58,27%

You see, the 3VZ-FE engine is only 30kg = 67lbs bigger then the 3S-GE and the differnce between front and rear change only around 0,5%.
I weight all engine parts myself and my difference between 3S-GE and 3VZ-FE will be 35kg = 78lbs this resukt is very exact.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I make the dyno run again now with the 3VZ-FE:
Video:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/3VZ-FE%...ngsmessung.wmv

I only make some head porting work, build a new Y-pipe and use the original airbox. And get 210hp at 6548rpm and 243Nm = 179lb/ft at 5572rpm.

Testresult with both engines, red is the 3S-GE black is the 3VZ-FE.
Power is german DIN Power at kw (kw x 1,36 = hp) torque is Nm (devide Nm through 1,36 and you get ft/lbs) left scale is power, right scale is torque

I only make some head porting work, build a new Y-pipe and use the original airbox. And get 210hp at 6548rpm and 243Nm = 179lb/ft at 5572rpm.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here you can see come drive videos with my car, there is some background noise from the cam, this is not from the car. Videos are between 4-27MB.

First start:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Anlassen.wmv

Overtake a Chrysler Crossfire:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Crossfire.wmv

Through old village with 5gear at 20miles
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/130-30-130_im5Gang.wmv

up to 7000upm and some curves:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Have_Fun%201.wmv

curves:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Have_Fun%202.wmv

with open windows on village main road:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Scheiben_unten.wmv

Getting home 5gear steep uphill:
http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/30erZone_5Gang_Bergauf.wmv

Here is it:

Now I´am very happy, the 3VZ-FE engine is great.
But I have some trouble to get the very important law paper here in germany. Next year they will no longer allow other engines in any car which was not sold by the producer in germany!

Then it will be unpossible to change any engine here in germany.

4v6 · 11-24-2007, 05:20 AM

Superb job Markus! Sounds great, looks great.

blackbob · 11-24-2007, 07:05 AM

Well after seeing that pick I'm embarressed to look at my own car...roflmao..anyway. Looks good and keep up the good work.

Gimpster · 11-24-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot-chili

Now I´am very happy, the 3VZ-FE engine is great.
But I have some trouble to get the very important law paper here in germany. Next year they will no longer allow other engines in any car which was not sold by the producer in germany!

Then it will be unpossible to change any engine here in germany.

I'm floored by that.

When I think of mechanical ingenuity and excellence, I often think of Germany. What happened to Germany?!?!

I like your comparisons, and I think your build looks very nice. I hope the powers that be allow you to keep your car together.

Weasy2k · 11-25-2007, 04:09 AM

great work man! VERY informative and just goes to show the power of the v6 in the mr2 in stock form!

hot-chili · 11-25-2007, 04:24 AM

The problem in germany is the price of the swap.
I now pay 2700€ for the engine, 300€ to make it clean and painting, 1500€ for produce the special parts and 2000€ for Toyota replace parts.
Now must I pay 500€ to get a law paper in germany..
Together I pay 7000€ = 10360$ for the swap.
For a good turbo swap you pay in germany between 10000 and 15000$

And then comes the more fixed costs, more car tax more insurance and more fuel costs.
Now we pay 1,50€ per liter, this are 8,45$ per US galone!!!

Davis · 11-25-2007, 10:31 AM

Oh my, The engine's so beautiful sitting there in the back!

VeilsideMR2 · 11-25-2007, 01:00 PM

wow thats awesome... gratz on a sick job...

Weasy2k · 11-25-2007, 02:19 PM

Holy $$ batman....you are one dedicated mr2 owner to do all that for that much! Again good work.

hot-chili · 11-28-2007, 10:25 AM

I change now all dates into miles, hope you can now read it easier.

mr220v · 11-28-2007, 10:49 AM

Just to clarify, on the chart, it shows that your 0-63mph time was 9.6-10.1 seconds? This seems high for the gen3 3sge. The 1990 gen2 3sge was rated at a 0-60 of 6.8 seconds?

On second thought, the european gen3 3sge's came with a shorter final drive. The 3vzfe would be better suited for that tranny.

Gimpster · 11-28-2007, 04:33 PM

I don't want to make a whole new thread, but I just looked at your dynosheets in the dyno collection thread.

Was neat to see your ACIS results, it kind of confirmed my track MPH results when I tested mine.

hot-chili · 11-29-2007, 02:33 AM

@ mr220v
The 1990 MR2 has much less weight then my 1994 setup and the difference between 14" rims and 18" rims are around 1 second.

The MR2 Turbo with 225hp reach 63miles in 6.0s how should it be possible that a 156hp non turbo car can reach it in 6,8s impossible!!!

And the 1990 tach goes 7miles wrong too! You must test from 0-70miles to get real 63miles.
How I told I have a problem with my gearbox and I start with normal gas, a real time for a normal 175hp MR2 is 8-8,5s and a real time for the V6 is 6-6,5s.

mr220v · 11-29-2007, 12:31 PM

The 6.8 second 0-60 is what is widely quoted on the UK mr2 forums, and in the UK car mags. The first year came without a cat, later years had one, so performance dropped off a bit. The US 5sfe mr2 is rated at 8 seconds. All 0-60 runs were done by professional drivers I'm sure though.

When the gen3 3sge mr2's were released, some or all of them came with a shorter final drive (I'm not sure if it was european models only, or if it included jdm models as well). This made for easier high speed cruising and a higher top speed, but killed the 0-60. The 0-60 ratings on the UK gen3 3sge equiped mr2's was over 8 seconds. 8.4 I think. So the gearing change really put a damper on things.

The gen3's with the shorter final drive always looked a little disapointing. All 3sge's need to be able to rev to get off the line. It's actually common on the UK sites for people to use gen2 transmissions with their gen3's.

In your case, that gen3 transmission probably suites the 3vzfe better than it did the 3sge. It utilizes the lowend torque better.

hot-chili · 11-30-2007, 04:32 AM

In germany all 3S-GE engines use the same gear ratios from 1989-1999!

mr220v · 11-30-2007, 07:05 AM

What is the final drive ratio that you had in Germany?

hot-chili · 12-06-2007, 08:13 AM

All 5 gears:
1. 3,285 x 3,944 = 12,95
2. 1,960 x 3,944 = 7,73
3. 1,322 x 3,944 = 5,21
4. 1,028 x 3,944 = 4,05
5. 0,820 x 3,944 = 3,23

Final drive is 3,944

Highest speed at 5 gear with normal tires is 246km/h = 154miles/h at 7200rpm.

11-24-2007, 03:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
hot-chili No Skills Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	My testresults 3S-GE vs. 3VZ-FE and videos To make a complete overview about the new 3VZ-FE I make many tests. Some only for me some for our technical car tests to get a law paper to be allowed to drive on german streets. !!!Please, this test results are only correct for my car with my setup, my wheels and my drive style!!! It is only to show the direct difference between the engines at same car! Bevor I have a 3S-GE Engine with original 175hp from 1994. I tune him to 179hp at 7467upm and 177Nm at 6913Nm here is the dyno video: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/3S-GE%2...ngsmessung.wmv ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Then I drive many test to find out how big is the differnce between the both engines. (now all in miles!!) 3S-GE: 3VZ-FE: Speed / Gear / 3S-GE / 3VZ-FE / change % 13-38miles/h 2 5,1s 3,2s + 59% 19-38miles/h 3 6s 3,5s + 71% 19-63miles/h 3 12s 7,7s + 56% 25-44miles/h 4 7,3s 4,8s + 52% 25-44miles/h 5 11,9s 5,9s + 102% 38-63miles/h 3 7,2s 4,6s + 57% 38-63miles/h 4 10,3s 6,4s + 61% 38-63miles/h 5 14,6s 9,7s + 51% 50-75miles/h 3 7,1s 4,9s + 45% 50-75miles/h 4 9,9s 6,5s + 52% 50-75miles/h 5 14,2s 8,4s + 69% 0-63miles/h 1-2 9,9s 7,4s + 34% My MR2 is now in elasticity between 45 to 102% faster then my old with 3S-GE engine. My speed up will be 34% better. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then I must make more test, I drive to a big car weighbridge to get a law paper. Both engine use the S54 gearbox. Bevor I test with my 3S-GE: Front axle: 525kg = 1166lbs = 42,34% Rear axle: 715kg = 1588lbs = 57,66% Testresult with 3VZ-FE engine: Front axle: 530kg = 1177lbs = 41,73% Rear axle: 740kg = 1644lbs = 58,27% You see, the 3VZ-FE engine is only 30kg = 67lbs bigger then the 3S-GE and the differnce between front and rear change only around 0,5%. I weight all engine parts myself and my difference between 3S-GE and 3VZ-FE will be 35kg = 78lbs this resukt is very exact. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Then I make the dyno run again now with the 3VZ-FE: Video: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/3VZ-FE%...ngsmessung.wmv I only make some head porting work, build a new Y-pipe and use the original airbox. And get 210hp at 6548rpm and 243Nm = 179lb/ft at 5572rpm. Testresult with both engines, red is the 3S-GE black is the 3VZ-FE. Power is german DIN Power at kw (kw x 1,36 = hp) torque is Nm (devide Nm through 1,36 and you get ft/lbs) left scale is power, right scale is torque I only make some head porting work, build a new Y-pipe and use the original airbox. And get 210hp at 6548rpm and 243Nm = 179lb/ft at 5572rpm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here you can see come drive videos with my car, there is some background noise from the cam, this is not from the car. Videos are between 4-27MB. First start: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Anlassen.wmv Overtake a Chrysler Crossfire: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Crossfire.wmv Through old village with 5gear at 20miles http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/130-30-130_im5Gang.wmv up to 7000upm and some curves: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Have_Fun%201.wmv curves: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Have_Fun%202.wmv with open windows on village main road: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/Scheiben_unten.wmv Getting home 5gear steep uphill: http://www.mein-mr2.de/Filme/30erZone_5Gang_Bergauf.wmv Here is it: Now I´am very happy, the 3VZ-FE engine is great. But I have some trouble to get the very important law paper here in germany. Next year they will no longer allow other engines in any car which was not sold by the producer in germany! Then it will be unpossible to change any engine here in germany. Last edited by hot-chili; 11-28-2007 at 10:14 AM..

11-29-2007, 12:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	The 6.8 second 0-60 is what is widely quoted on the UK mr2 forums, and in the UK car mags. The first year came without a cat, later years had one, so performance dropped off a bit. The US 5sfe mr2 is rated at 8 seconds. All 0-60 runs were done by professional drivers I'm sure though. When the gen3 3sge mr2's were released, some or all of them came with a shorter final drive (I'm not sure if it was european models only, or if it included jdm models as well). This made for easier high speed cruising and a higher top speed, but killed the 0-60. The 0-60 ratings on the UK gen3 3sge equiped mr2's was over 8 seconds. 8.4 I think. So the gearing change really put a damper on things. The gen3's with the shorter final drive always looked a little disapointing. All 3sge's need to be able to rev to get off the line. It's actually common on the UK sites for people to use gen2 transmissions with their gen3's. In your case, that gen3 transmission probably suites the 3vzfe better than it did the 3sge. It utilizes the lowend torque better. Last edited by mr220v; 11-29-2007 at 12:38 PM..

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11-24-2007, 05:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
4v6 http://www.Typ-85.co.uk Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 184 Thanks: 2 Thanked 24 Times in 14 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Superb job Markus! Sounds great, looks great.

11-24-2007, 07:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
blackbob wiring....odds and ends Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Stationed in Guam Posts: 753 Thanks: 61 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Well after seeing that pick I'm embarressed to look at my own car...roflmao..anyway. Looks good and keep up the good work.

11-25-2007, 04:09 AM	#5 (permalink)
Weasy2k What is an MR2? Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,891 Thanks: 33 Thanked 82 Times in 68 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	great work man! VERY informative and just goes to show the power of the v6 in the mr2 in stock form!

11-25-2007, 04:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
hot-chili No Skills Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	The problem in germany is the price of the swap. I now pay 2700€ for the engine, 300€ to make it clean and painting, 1500€ for produce the special parts and 2000€ for Toyota replace parts. Now must I pay 500€ to get a law paper in germany.. Together I pay 7000€ = 10360$ for the swap. For a good turbo swap you pay in germany between 10000 and 15000$ And then comes the more fixed costs, more car tax more insurance and more fuel costs. Now we pay 1,50€ per liter, this are 8,45$ per US galone!!!

11-25-2007, 10:31 AM	#7 (permalink)
Davis Radical Dreamer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Long Beach, California Posts: 4,536 Thanks: 85 Thanked 125 Times in 113 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	Oh my, The engine's so beautiful sitting there in the back!

11-25-2007, 01:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
VeilsideMR2 91' N/A BeAsT Join Date: May 2007 Location: Jersey/Boston Posts: 212 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	wow thats awesome... gratz on a sick job...

11-25-2007, 02:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
Weasy2k What is an MR2? Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,891 Thanks: 33 Thanked 82 Times in 68 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	Holy $$ batman....you are one dedicated mr2 owner to do all that for that much! Again good work.

11-28-2007, 10:25 AM	#10 (permalink)
hot-chili No Skills Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I change now all dates into miles, hope you can now read it easier.

11-28-2007, 10:49 AM	#11 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	Just to clarify, on the chart, it shows that your 0-63mph time was 9.6-10.1 seconds? This seems high for the gen3 3sge. The 1990 gen2 3sge was rated at a 0-60 of 6.8 seconds? On second thought, the european gen3 3sge's came with a shorter final drive. The 3vzfe would be better suited for that tranny.

11-28-2007, 04:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
Gimpster Cage Fighter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 674 Thanks: 5 Thanked 47 Times in 44 Posts Blog Entries: 2 iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I don't want to make a whole new thread, but I just looked at your dynosheets in the dyno collection thread. Was neat to see your ACIS results, it kind of confirmed my track MPH results when I tested mine.

11-29-2007, 02:33 AM	#13 (permalink)
hot-chili No Skills Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	@ mr220v The 1990 MR2 has much less weight then my 1994 setup and the difference between 14" rims and 18" rims are around 1 second. The MR2 Turbo with 225hp reach 63miles in 6.0s how should it be possible that a 156hp non turbo car can reach it in 6,8s impossible!!! And the 1990 tach goes 7miles wrong too! You must test from 0-70miles to get real 63miles. How I told I have a problem with my gearbox and I start with normal gas, a real time for a normal 175hp MR2 is 8-8,5s and a real time for the V6 is 6-6,5s.

11-30-2007, 04:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
hot-chili No Skills Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	In germany all 3S-GE engines use the same gear ratios from 1989-1999!

11-30-2007, 07:05 AM	#16 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	What is the final drive ratio that you had in Germany?

12-06-2007, 08:13 AM	#17 (permalink)
hot-chili No Skills Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	All 5 gears: 1. 3,285 x 3,944 = 12,95 2. 1,960 x 3,944 = 7,73 3. 1,322 x 3,944 = 5,21 4. 1,028 x 3,944 = 4,05 5. 0,820 x 3,944 = 3,23 Final drive is 3,944 Highest speed at 5 gear with normal tires is 246km/h = 154miles/h at 7200rpm.