We have spark! (MegaSquirt)
Well, I'm starting to do my writeup for installing a MS v3.0 on the 1MZ using the stock coils + igniter + crank trigger. I just thought I'd show some of the progress I'm making on it. I don't plan on posting my writeup until the car runs, but I'll just use this thread as my "official" blog of sorts.
I realize that Thwam and a couple others have MS's running on their setups, but sometimes the details are a lil thin. I just want to really give back to the community here on this. For people like me where a manual ECU doesn't exsist, this is going to be great. I think the Hydra, AEM, Haltech ... (etc etc) are great boxes, but I have like 2k into my swap. Dropping another 1.5k+ into an ECU isn't an option for me.
When this is all said and done, I'll make a full graphical pinout and any special instruction for hardware mods needed to be made to the MS.
Things I knew going into this-
First of all, I'm using a MegaSquirt-I V3.0 kit purchased from diyautotune. If it's not okay to say their name, let me know mods. I have zero affiliation with them though. The kit was very easy to assemble for someone like me, very well laid out and packaged. IF this is your first soldering project though, I almost urge you to consider buying a pre-assembled unit.
I knew that I wanted to use the stock IAC, so I bought the PWM idle control "kit" to control it. That's the least of my worries right now though, so we won't even get into idle control discussion yet
More importantly, I also knew from the start I didn't want to use the typical MegaSquirt VB921 modules as igniters. They work fine and all, but why re-engineer what Toyota gave us: an automotive quality igniter module w/big heatsink. Less wiring hassle this way too.
My 1995 Avalon motor is equiped with 6-COP, and at first I kinda wanted to keep that. Lucky for us, MSnS-Extra supports up to 6 ignition outputs now. This comes at a price though, you obviously lose 3 outputs for other things (like knock, shiftlight and one spare output). If your car is a 3-COP setup, you're in the money. Just use the LED outputs for all 3 coils (more on that later).
MOST importantly, I knew I wanted to retain the stock crank trigger like others have done. EDIS is nice and all, but putting a 36-1 ring on the crank pulley is more drama than I want to deal with. Plus, MS now supports the wheel decoder.. so why not use it?
Currently I have the MS assembled and bench tested. Just tonight I got the 3 basic ignition outputs to work with the stock Toyota igniter module. This will be in the write up, but after trying a couple resistor values.. 330ohm seems to work best for the outputs.
IE: LED16 -> 330ohm -> igniter
Currently I'm trying to decide if I want to switch to 3-COP or stick with 6-COP. I'm leaning toward 3-COP for a couple reasons:
1.) Even with all 6 COP's, it'll be batch fire (so what did I gain?)
2.) I lose 3 outputs that could be used for nitrous control, shift light.. etc
Also if I ever later upgrade to a MS-II + sequential injection/ignition, it'll be really easy to swap back to 6-COP. The only bummer I can think of so far is having to buy 3 of those coils + the spark plug wires, but I should be able to score those in the junkyard easy. Unless one of you guys has a spare set laying around?
What's Left To Do-
My next task is to bandsaw the connector off a dead 94-96 ECU I have and make a conversion harness to my stock engine harness. I DO NOT want to modify my 1MZ's harness in any fashion. Should I have trouble, I want to be able to simply plug the stock ECU in and go.
I also need to add a DB25 connector to my MS's enclosure for the ignition outputs. I'd like to leave the spare pins on the main connector free for nitrous, IAC and stuff like that.
So here are some pictures of it in action:
My ghetto basement lab
Found out some interesting information today.
I decided to run the MS on the bench for an extended period to burn it in. I noticed that my igniter started to get pretty hot to the touch, much hotter than I remembered in the car... so I shut it down. I figured I was having some dwell issues causing it. So I did some research and found out that the 1995 Avalon (what my motor came from) uses the same igniter as the following cars:
8/90-5/93 JZA70 1JZ Supra
10/93-8/98 JZA80 2JZ TT Supra
9/94-8/95 MCX10 (Avalon 1MZ V6) 95 model
ALL use the same Toyota/Denso igniter assy.
Why's this important? Well the Supra igniter is a "smart" igniter, and handles dwell control on it's own. Good thing I caught this now before I cooked my igniter. IF I had a highHP car, I'd prolly look into switching over to a dumb igniter so that I could dictate my spark strength a little better.
See this diagram/datasheet for more info: http://www.ecimulti.org/albums/album220/ncf098.jpg
Mad Dance Skills
Ugh... I feel like the "dumb ignitor" as I am trying to soak all this in. What do you call high hp? I'll be watching this thread with great anticipation. My MS is still in waiting.
The Supra TT guys seem to start having spark problems at the 500hp area, from the reseach I saw while digging up info about my ignitor. It seems that since the igniter limits dwell (and thus spark energy) they get blowout issues. This was gleaned from a couple thread on the subject, and I'm by no means a JZ expert. So if that info is incorrect, don't sue me.
I consdier any motor in the 400-500+ range to be higher HP range Maybe I'm jaded since both of my daily beater pickups are 300+.
Like I said though, ONLY the 1995 Avalon got the smart igniter. Far as I know, the other V6's all have "dumb" igniters so it's a non-issue for you guys.
Keep that MS around, hopefully you'll be able to put it to some good use soon
What is an MR2?
^ yea i burned a couple COP assemblies that way....they are also smart!
The 5vz-fe from what i remeber controls dwell as well....the part numbers are different because it has a different plug! Getting spark is easy via the stock ignitor and spark plug...its the crank signal thats trouble...are you verifing that the crank pickup is working?
I'll have more data after I finish my patch harness, but I'm not anticipating any crank trigger issues. Famous last words, right?
The logs from that other dude using the EMSPro (a high dollar MegaSquirt) and Thwams success give me hope. There are also a slew of people using MS's with the late UZ crank triggers which are similar. The MS v3.0 also has circuitry to boost the signal of the VR sensor if needed.
I'll cross that bridge when I get there and suspect that I'll be able to tell you more within a couple weeks.
Mad Dance Skills
This is the part that will keep me on the edge of my seat.
Originally Posted by Weasy2k
You can also use the cam sensor if you can't get the crank pickup sensor to work. Just something my friend and I were discussing the other day. That and moving my setup to MSII...
the toyota tech docs list most igniters as smart igniters. the earlier (94) 1MZ had a 6 channel smart igniter, a channel for each coil. the later ones ran the 3 channel for wasted spark, but most of the diagrams listed for the V6 cars have a dwell control component in the igniter itself.
Originally Posted by Gimpster
i don't think the spark blowout issue in the igniters is so much the dwell time as the internal current limiting. i haven't been able to find much data on that, but the few scope shots i've seen of toyota igniters in action limit the coil current to about 6.5A regardless of dwell time, which typically limits the coil to ~75mJ.
bosch makes some multichannel igniters that charge to about 9A (which would almost double the spark energy), but they're pretty spendy. the 3 channel was used on the alfa 164 V6 i think.
What is an MR2?
great info karl! Thanks!
Gimpster, i have my fingers crossed....i personally think its how the wiring job was done. I had a haltech running my 5vz ONLY when the crank wire was traveling the outside wall of the engine bay, away from everything else. If i ran it in the loom no way would there be a stable enough signal. Given this was a old haltech, but it was nice to be able to play around with things to see how it would work. I revved the 5vz to 6700rpm that day in first woo woo....
subscribe!!!!!! ms working fine on stock hardware!!! no way lets doooo it!!!
Oh, and here is a preliminary wiring diagram. PLEASE note that this isn't finalized, just wanted to give an idea of where I'm going with my write-up. Also note that the items on the bottom right are there from the factory (assuming you wired your V6 in factory style like me). I just put them there to illustrate how I'm wiring this up.
I also haven't decided how I want to wire my o2 just yet. I might just take the wideband out of my truck and use it for lambda logging / target lambda table usage.
Need to decide exactly how I'm going to handle the IAC too, so that's also not illustrated yet. I have the MS setup for PWM idle, but I've got a lot of testing to do with that before finalizing anything.
I've attached it due to large resolution.
Last edited by Gimpster; 01-23-2008 at 10:22 PM.
Reason: Removed incorrect diagram.
Winnar! I love how simple it is.. if only I didn't live in California... =/
Updated diagram, I made mistakes on the coils & injectors. For some reason I thought the cyl order was different in my head... doh! Still need to figure out IAC and O2, but that's the least of my worries right now.
I have some of the 3 COP's + spark plug wires on the way. When they get here I can try turning the key and see if the crank trigger is really syncing up like the software says it is
Last edited by Gimpster; 04-06-2008 at 04:44 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to Gimpster For This Useful Post:
I thought I'd post an update.
I ended up having to switch to the 3-COP style igniter. Luckily toyota used the same pins as they did on the 6 COP igniter, and it was a breeze to plug her in.
Once I did that, the thing cranked right up and idled like a dream!
I plan on runing TWO of the 3-COP style igniters and keeping my 6 coils that way. It'll fire batch, but it looks a lot cleaner than the 3 coils + plug wires :P
It's still like -69 degrees out and 2 feet of snow, and the front end of my car is ripped apart right now Once it's back together and its closer to spring, I'll be heading to the dyno. You guys won't even recognize my car anymore this year, its gotten some major love over the winter.
So in closing: The car is running very well on the MS + 3 COP igniter right now. The 95 avalon/6 COP "smart" igniter proved to be problematic with the MegaSquirt.
What is an MR2?
I got my 5vz working with 3 after market igniters (came with another standalone) and 6 COP units all wired in as if they were wasted spark. Much easier to use an external igniter like you did. I fried many COP units trying to figure things out.
Well, I have all the VB921's (the little IC igniters most people use) ... but for whatever reason really wanted to use teh Toyota igniter. Most likely not worth the effort/bs I went through, but oh well.. it works now.