High-revving V6

MR2Lifer · 08-25-2009, 04:20 PM

Hi,

I've been doing a good deal of reading on this forum in order to get a better feel for the various power upgrade options available for the '91 Turbo.

One of the possibilities that I've been contemplating, but haven't seen any posts on, is to build a high-revving, NA V6. I hope such a thing could be done with the 2GR-FE but if not, I'd consider engines with lower displacement.

I don't want to hit high rpm for the heck of it.

What I'm after is an engine with the characteristics that make an M engine and M engine: streetable, reliable, linear to the point of almost being boring, and fierce responsiveness throughout its rpm range. Note that I haven't set an hp or ft-lb figure. I'm far more interested in scoring high on the characteristics I've listed. (I'm assuming that an engine with a 3.5 liter displacement with the characteristics I'm after can be massaged to >300whp but if not, no problem.)

I know I can build a great engine with a relatively simple, bolt-on turbo upgrade kit. I'll probably end up going this way because I suspect that the high-revving NA route will prove to be too expensive. But having pled guilty to the major objections I'm anticipating: does anyone have any thoughts or sources they care to share?

My thanks in advance.

KyleScha · 08-25-2009, 04:26 PM

if everything was balanced/strong enough couldn't you get any engine to rev as high as you want? Then with oversized valves and different cams you could get the power you are looking for?

fvillota · 08-25-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleScha

if everything was balanced/strong enough couldn't you get any engine to rev as high as you want? Then with oversized valves and different cams you could get the power you are looking for?

+1

TomsMR2 · 08-25-2009, 04:46 PM

the 2gr is the best choice. why would you chose a peaky weak ~250hp mz with thousands poured into it over a bone stock 300hp gr? the gr would be dynamically better as well, more responsive everywhere, and drastically more reliable.

johnny g · 08-25-2009, 05:59 PM

2GR-FE + headwork + headers + ECU capable of controlling the VVTi.

I think you'll see 7500rpm maybe 7750rpm with more to come when the Lotus tuners start to make the VVTi-ready cam upgrades.

Mark_Dorman · 08-25-2009, 06:15 PM

That'd be sick. That's also some serious cash to drop into your car

boosted475 · 08-25-2009, 06:45 PM

v6 can fit back there?!?

Mark_Dorman · 08-25-2009, 08:37 PM

Hence the V6 forum...

MK 2 - V6 - Toyota MR2 Message Board

Jason.MZW20 · 08-26-2009, 07:56 PM

The 2GR is probably the best way to go. Even though the 3VZ is capable of being a high-revver, its internals are just too heavy and it doesn't produce the amount of valve lift the 2GR's roller-rocker system, with its special cam lobes, can (same for the MZs).

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2GR hitting 8000rpm and still producing usable power with a few cam/VVT mods.

Mark_Dorman · 08-26-2009, 09:15 PM

The 3vz could be if you replaced all the internals with forged parts. But the amount of money you'd spend would probably total the cost of a 2gr...

Jason.MZW20 · 08-27-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_Dorman

The 3vz could be if you replaced all the internals with forged parts. But the amount of money you'd spend would probably total the cost of a 2gr...

And the 2GR still produces 100whp more WITHOUT mods. That's a big difference.

Mark_Dorman · 08-28-2009, 01:07 PM

Very true...hence why the 2gr would be a more logical route. Unless you were just doing the 3vz for the fun of building a motor. The 2gr is an impressive engine...I don't see a reason why you wouldn't put one in if you had the choice. I just wish it wasn't drive by wire...maybe the Lotus won't be

MR2Lifer · 08-30-2009, 09:09 PM

Thanks, everyone. Seems like the thing to do is put a 2GR-FE in next spring-summer, wait for the Lotus aftermarket to do its best, and go from there.

Anyone need a 3SGTE with 105K on it?

LoL

(No chance I sell the original engine. Who knows what laws and regs might come down the line?)

Sh0ty · 08-30-2009, 09:44 PM

Would it be possible to use a 2GR-SFE? It's the Lexus motor with a little more power.

4v6 · 08-31-2009, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh0ty

Would it be possible to use a 2GR-SFE? It's the Lexus motor with a little more power.

Apparently not. Something to do with the way the blocks cast and not being able to direct the driveshaft past it (or so ive heard).

Mark_Dorman · 09-02-2009, 03:15 PM

Yeah...you can't mount the 2gr-fse transversely. I think Lotus would have picked it for the Evora if they could

Levi_ · 09-03-2009, 11:21 PM

FSE doesn't bolt up to the E-153

thats what kills it

Its not really necessary though, the 2gr-fe is more than enough.

Mark_Dorman · 09-04-2009, 04:45 AM

True...the 2GR-FE is pretty restricted in stock form. Good potential there

mk3supra · 09-05-2009, 01:24 AM

It is possible with a 1mz but costs a ridiculous amount of money. I have 1mz used in a class one desert racer that revs to 9200rpm. It is 350 hp and 387lbs torque that I am selling one of the custom manifolds from. The original builder dumped 20K into the development of this engine and it has been bored, stroked to 3.4l and even has a drysump setup. I recently acquired it for a relative steal and can post pics to prove it. Pictures are viewable on mr2oc.com. I am not saying this to brag about the motor (ok maybe just a little) but to let you know for the record that 300+hp is possible NA with the 1mz as well as 9200rpm albeit it is hardly cost effective. A boosted 3vz would cost less than a fully built 1m like mine.

MR2Lifer · 09-05-2009, 05:32 PM

Can I push the subject a little?

There must be a standardized test engine blocks are subjected to in order to determine their ability to handle torsion and/or the other forces generated at high rpm.

Does anyone know what tests are used for this purpose or how I would go about finding out exactly what forces the 2GR-FE block [and crankshaft] can handle?

("Hello, MIT?")

Once again, my thanks in advance.

08-25-2009, 04:20 PM	#1 (permalink)
MR2Lifer No Skills Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	High-revving V6 Hi, I've been doing a good deal of reading on this forum in order to get a better feel for the various power upgrade options available for the '91 Turbo. One of the possibilities that I've been contemplating, but haven't seen any posts on, is to build a high-revving, NA V6. I hope such a thing could be done with the 2GR-FE but if not, I'd consider engines with lower displacement. I don't want to hit high rpm for the heck of it. What I'm after is an engine with the characteristics that make an M engine and M engine: streetable, reliable, linear to the point of almost being boring, and fierce responsiveness throughout its rpm range. Note that I haven't set an hp or ft-lb figure. I'm far more interested in scoring high on the characteristics I've listed. (I'm assuming that an engine with a 3.5 liter displacement with the characteristics I'm after can be massaged to >300whp but if not, no problem.) I know I can build a great engine with a relatively simple, bolt-on turbo upgrade kit. I'll probably end up going this way because I suspect that the high-revving NA route will prove to be too expensive. But having pled guilty to the major objections I'm anticipating: does anyone have any thoughts or sources they care to share? My thanks in advance. Last edited by MR2Lifer; 08-25-2009 at 04:24 PM.. Reason: my grammar sucks! LoL

08-25-2009, 04:46 PM	#4 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Still not heraldo. Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pineapple under the sea Posts: 4,911 Thanks: 18 Thanked 406 Times in 303 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	the 2gr is the best choice. why would you chose a peaky weak ~250hp mz with thousands poured into it over a bone stock 300hp gr? the gr would be dynamically better as well, more responsive everywhere, and drastically more reliable. __________________ Science fact: If you took all the veins from your body and laid them end to end, you would die.

08-25-2009, 08:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman So long MR2's... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,666 Thanks: 97 Thanked 86 Times in 82 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (26/100% )	Hence the V6 forum... MK 2 - V6 - Toyota MR2 Message Board Last edited by Mark_Dorman; 08-25-2009 at 08:45 PM..

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08-25-2009, 04:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
KyleScha Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 211 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	if everything was balanced/strong enough couldn't you get any engine to rev as high as you want? Then with oversized valves and different cams you could get the power you are looking for?

08-25-2009, 05:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
johnny g Talentless Researcher Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Liverpool, England. Posts: 297 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	2GR-FE + headwork + headers + ECU capable of controlling the VVTi. I think you'll see 7500rpm maybe 7750rpm with more to come when the Lotus tuners start to make the VVTi-ready cam upgrades.

08-25-2009, 06:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman So long MR2's... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,666 Thanks: 97 Thanked 86 Times in 82 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (26/100% )	That'd be sick. That's also some serious cash to drop into your car

08-25-2009, 06:45 PM	#7 (permalink)
boosted475 No Skills Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	v6 can fit back there?!?

08-26-2009, 07:56 PM	#9 (permalink)
Jason.MZW20 Pig Snout Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Victorville, CA Posts: 1,373 Thanks: 15 Thanked 111 Times in 102 Posts Blog Entries: 6 iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	The 2GR is probably the best way to go. Even though the 3VZ is capable of being a high-revver, its internals are just too heavy and it doesn't produce the amount of valve lift the 2GR's roller-rocker system, with its special cam lobes, can (same for the MZs). I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2GR hitting 8000rpm and still producing usable power with a few cam/VVT mods.

08-26-2009, 09:15 PM	#10 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman So long MR2's... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,666 Thanks: 97 Thanked 86 Times in 82 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (26/100% )	The 3vz could be if you replaced all the internals with forged parts. But the amount of money you'd spend would probably total the cost of a 2gr...

08-28-2009, 01:07 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman So long MR2's... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,666 Thanks: 97 Thanked 86 Times in 82 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (26/100% )	Very true...hence why the 2gr would be a more logical route. Unless you were just doing the 3vz for the fun of building a motor. The 2gr is an impressive engine...I don't see a reason why you wouldn't put one in if you had the choice. I just wish it wasn't drive by wire...maybe the Lotus won't be

08-30-2009, 09:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
MR2Lifer No Skills Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Thanks, everyone. Seems like the thing to do is put a 2GR-FE in next spring-summer, wait for the Lotus aftermarket to do its best, and go from there. Anyone need a 3SGTE with 105K on it? LoL (No chance I sell the original engine. Who knows what laws and regs might come down the line?)

08-30-2009, 09:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sh0ty Armchair Racer Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Novi, MI Posts: 1,273 Thanks: 22 Thanked 57 Times in 54 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Would it be possible to use a 2GR-SFE? It's the Lexus motor with a little more power.

09-02-2009, 03:15 PM	#16 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman So long MR2's... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,666 Thanks: 97 Thanked 86 Times in 82 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (26/100% )	Yeah...you can't mount the 2gr-fse transversely. I think Lotus would have picked it for the Evora if they could

09-03-2009, 11:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
Levi_ Cage Fighter Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	FSE doesn't bolt up to the E-153 thats what kills it Its not really necessary though, the 2gr-fe is more than enough.

09-04-2009, 04:45 AM	#18 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman So long MR2's... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,666 Thanks: 97 Thanked 86 Times in 82 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (26/100% )	True...the 2GR-FE is pretty restricted in stock form. Good potential there

09-05-2009, 01:24 AM	#19 (permalink)
mk3supra No Skills Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	It is possible with a 1mz but costs a ridiculous amount of money. I have 1mz used in a class one desert racer that revs to 9200rpm. It is 350 hp and 387lbs torque that I am selling one of the custom manifolds from. The original builder dumped 20K into the development of this engine and it has been bored, stroked to 3.4l and even has a drysump setup. I recently acquired it for a relative steal and can post pics to prove it. Pictures are viewable on mr2oc.com. I am not saying this to brag about the motor (ok maybe just a little) but to let you know for the record that 300+hp is possible NA with the 1mz as well as 9200rpm albeit it is hardly cost effective. A boosted 3vz would cost less than a fully built 1m like mine.

09-05-2009, 05:32 PM	#20 (permalink)
MR2Lifer No Skills Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Can I push the subject a little? There must be a standardized test engine blocks are subjected to in order to determine their ability to handle torsion and/or the other forces generated at high rpm. Does anyone know what tests are used for this purpose or how I would go about finding out exactly what forces the 2GR-FE block [and crankshaft] can handle? ("Hello, MIT?") Once again, my thanks in advance.